Albino clownfish and the Law

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I have already said the wrong thing earlier in this thread but I still think there is no clear right or wrong in this case. I agree laws are there to be obeyed but on the other hand these officials that does not want to or can not help with issuing the relevant permits has an obligation to do their job correctly the same as the rights they are claiming for themselves. This breeder also have rights not withstanding the fact that he is not a SA citizen.

I feel if all the processes of application and granting as well as rejecting of permits was handled in a professorial manner as per their job description this matter would have been cleared long ago and the applicant could have carried on breeding or alternatively to find a next project to make a living.

Surely one must not accept you can not continue with a project because some fat cat can not do his job or maybe have not received enough moolas under the table to inspire him to do his job.

When dealing with these officials they are very keen to give you a deadline so why can they drag their feet when they must deliver?
 
Although I am hardly an experienced reefer or member here, I'd just like to re-iterate what others have said above, ie, get yourself lawyer'd up as it won't be a matter of just discussing the finer details of legislature which you may know quite well, but rather a lot of legal mumbo jumbo which is an entirely different language altogether, and very difficult to defend yourself against as a normal person.

I have been in a situation before (traffic accident) where I knew I was 100% right as the guy drove into me after skipping a stop street, plus I had 8 witnesses, including a Paramedic at the scene saying the guy was drunk and all of them watched his wife remove empty alcohol bottles from the car at the scene of the accident whilst shouting "this is what happens, I told you you drink too much etc), and we still lost it in the end for a lot of shit reasons that their lawyers argued. It is not a matter of whether you are in the right or wrong at all, the presentation of the case matters a ton, and as a non legal-speak person, it is very difficult.

As I understand you're maybe a little strapped for cash, but considering that you have a lot of exposure in the SA forums as well as International, maybe consider opening a paypal account for donations to hire a lawyer proficient in this field to assist you. I am happy to pledge ZAR 250.00 to the cause, and maybe there's even someone on these forums with an interest in Reefing who could organize some sort of discount with a legal person etc.

Just an idea, I am not saying you are incapable or anything of the sort, but doing this without a lawyer leaves you at a serious disadvantage, especially as a non permanent resident without a green ID book (same as me, also German)
 
Christian said:
As I understand you're maybe a little strapped for cash, but considering that you have a lot of exposure in the SA forums as well as International, maybe consider opening a paypal account for donations to hire a lawyer proficient in this field to assist you. I am happy to pledge ZAR 250.00 to the cause, and maybe there's even someone on these forums with an interest in Reefing who could organize some sort of discount with a legal person etc.

Just an idea, I am not saying you are incapable or anything of the sort, but doing this without a lawyer leaves you at a serious disadvantage, especially as a non permanent resident without a green ID book (same as me, also German)
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Very kind of you, Landsmann.

Let's see what is coming up tomorrow.
 
Trev said:
Ok I understand your point, have you managed to arrange a meeting with the director of DAFF ( btw what th ehell does DAFF stand for ? )
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Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries
 
Best case scenario is that all this will result in legislation being adapted for the slightly different practice of marine ornamental aquaculture. At the moment it does fall under the same laws as foodfish mariculture and you may find that this is done purposefully.

You will need legal representation to argue that the current legislation is outdated or inaccurate for marine ornamentals. I'm not doubting your skills, knowledge or passion but law is a 7 year degree for a reason.
 
Falcon said:
lucky fish have you asked the german embassy to help you with a lawyer?
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Yes I did, but they just have sent me a list of German speaking lawyers in different fields. I don't need a German speaking lawyer, but a specialist in aquaculture.
 
It scares the crap out of my, what rights these inspectors have got. Three of them pitch up and a cop was here as well, to assist them if needed. I was forced to give them from each juvenile holding tank a sample. In total they took 4 albinos and 2 normal orange ocellaris, which most likely carry the recessive gene. Taking a sample means, fish in the net onto the desk, taking a picture and then thrown into pure alcohol. How cruel is that?
They got the right to confiscate the whole lifestock.
Now I am convinced that I have to get a lawyer. At this stage I have to take the offer for financial help from anybody who is willing to help me and at the end also other applicants for breeding marine ornamentals.
I am going to send Allan a PM to discuss such fund.

Thanks in advance, fellow reefers.
 
You should have had a hidden camera for Cart Blanche.
 
They are clearly not messing around and are building a case they feel they have grounds to persue. As a South African I suspect it is not a big deal as at worst you will get a slap on the wrist, I can't see these charges carrying jail time, but for someone not being an SA citizen it could be really bad.

Having a judgement against you will mean it is too late to say " I should have gotten a lawyer" play it safe and get represented.
 
I'm sorry to hear its come to this marcel :( Good luck with the battle ahead, very glad to hear you're getting legal help tho - you will most definitely need it.
 
LuckyFish said:
It scares the crap out of my, what rights these inspectors have got. Three of them pitch up and a cop was here as well, to assist them if needed. I was forced to give them from each juvenile holding tank a sample. In total they took 4 albinos and 2 normal orange ocellaris, which most likely carry the recessive gene. Taking a sample means, fish in the net onto the desk, taking a picture and then thrown into pure alcohol. How cruel is that?
They got the right to confiscate the whole lifestock.
Now I am convinced that I have to get a lawyer. At this stage I have to take the offer for financial help from anybody who is willing to help me and at the end also other applicants for breeding marine ornamentals.
I am going to send Allan a PM to discuss such fund.

Thanks in advance, fellow reefers.
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ouch...oh well atleast they took them dead so no prospect of fishy business going on to get your albinoes for now.

Good luck will help where we can
 
LuckyFish said:
In total they took 4 albinos and 2 normal orange ocellaris, which most likely carry the recessive gene. Taking a sample means, fish in the net onto the desk, taking a picture and then thrown into pure alcohol. How cruel is that?
They got the right to confiscate the whole lifestock.
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Marcel, when I heard that they had taken some of your stock, I immediately became worried that this was "aided theft" of your stock...i.e. it leaves your place and somehow finds its way into another breeder's hands. BE VERY GLAD that they killed the fish they took...that is by far the best way for them to leave your tanks at this point in time.

Of course, why they had to take killed specimens to determine the species ID is beyond me, but I think it's really more the taking of "evidence", not "samples". I'm not even really sure why the species ID matters because nothing remotely similar to Amphiprion ocellaris is a native SA species, and that would seem to be the question they might be trying to answer. Marcel, as they say here in the US...it is way past time to "LAWYER UP"!!! Get yourself some legal help as quickly as possible.

As far as some of the naysayers here, I'd just like to toss in that the article on RB under my name is actually the concoction of 3 different RB contributors all scrambling simultaneously to get the story out as quickly as possible. I'm sorry if some of you did not like the title that was chosen, but honestly that wasn't my title and wasn't my call.

And yes, the article and this entire situation should serve as a wakeup call to all the aquarist in SA. Afterall, basically the entire Marine Aquarium Hobby has possibly been outlawed in India (or as I'm told, it's illegal unless you pay the right people). Don't believe me? I wrote that up as well on RB. While I'm no lawyer, this is indeed a case of FISHING-related laws being applied to something totally different...the laws cited in the paperwork actually lead to the outlawing of the "husbandry and culture of fish in saltwater". Husbandry = care, not breeding. It's a very poor application of the fundamentally wrong laws, but on the flipside, taken at face value, it suggests that you are all guilty of the same thing that Marcel is being charged with. A case like this sets a precedent - it is very important that you remain engaged and involved.

Good luck Marcel, and keep us all in the loop!

Matt
 
marcel, im in forR250. too just say when. in fact i have a tl 450 and ill move its contents to my tl550. if anyone will take the tl450 for a 1000 bucks ill make it R1250.00
 
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i am chatting to a friend and seeing about a pro-bono helping hand
 
good stuff ,spoke to marcel earlier and the poor dude is dooby dooby down down. as i said earlier im in to help with some of the cost. step up to the plate guys. open that can of whipass you have stashed for a rainy day! the rain is now above our parade!
 
mandarinman said:
good stuff ,spoke to marcel earlier and the poor dude is dooby dooby down down
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Can't say I blame him. Imagine having someone knock on your door, letting themselves in and taking your livestock after they killed them, while you sit there completely helpless.

I agree with Matt, this really needs to take top priority!
 
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