Albino clownfish and the Law
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Tobes
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Guys I have deleted a couple of posts as we at MASA will not entertain mud slinging and threatening posts. There is no prove yet as to who is responsible, so keep it clean otherwise this thread will be closed or deleted. Thanks
Marcel how did the magistrate respond to the charge as they put it on your charge sheet or what ever they call that doc.
I really do think that you should make use of a lawer and I am sure that your countries embasy would be able to provide you with one. A month is a decent amount of time to prepare yourself.
However I do have to agree with the point sims has made but I hope you can sort things out.
I really do think that you should make use of a lawer and I am sure that your countries embasy would be able to provide you with one. A month is a decent amount of time to prepare yourself.
However I do have to agree with the point sims has made but I hope you can sort things out.
I think a lot of people here are overlooking the fact that the charge against Marcel was "Possession of Marine Life", not "unauthorized breeding of marine fish". If that charge is a VALID charge, that means every single person on this thread, every single marine aquarist in SA, and every single store that sells marine aquarium fish, would be in violation of the laws unless you all have permits for the fish you keep.
I'm not sure how the government works in South Africa, but here, we'd be writing our congressmen, senators, you name it, urging legislation that fixes the issue.
As far as confiscation of the fish, sadly, it DID cross my mind that someone else who wants to get ahold of them could use this avenue for obtaining them. Sadly, in the US, there are similar cases where confiscated livestock winds up in commercial hands (i.e. the orchid, Paphiopedilum vietnamense is now legally available in the US because Fish and Wildlife Services confiscated an illegal importation of the plant, and turned the plants over to an orchid breeder who in turn was permitted to breed them and then could legally sell the offspring).
Marcel, I strongly urge you to find legal help if you can, and I also strong urge you to continue the process of obtaining your permits. I know it's not on the same scale, but if you get a ticket for not having car insurance here in the US, often times the violation is thrown out if you have insurance by the time you go to court. Continue to make a good faith effort to do things the right way.
I'm not sure how the government works in South Africa, but here, we'd be writing our congressmen, senators, you name it, urging legislation that fixes the issue.
As far as confiscation of the fish, sadly, it DID cross my mind that someone else who wants to get ahold of them could use this avenue for obtaining them. Sadly, in the US, there are similar cases where confiscated livestock winds up in commercial hands (i.e. the orchid, Paphiopedilum vietnamense is now legally available in the US because Fish and Wildlife Services confiscated an illegal importation of the plant, and turned the plants over to an orchid breeder who in turn was permitted to breed them and then could legally sell the offspring).
Marcel, I strongly urge you to find legal help if you can, and I also strong urge you to continue the process of obtaining your permits. I know it's not on the same scale, but if you get a ticket for not having car insurance here in the US, often times the violation is thrown out if you have insurance by the time you go to court. Continue to make a good faith effort to do things the right way.
butcherman
Moderator
This was the question i asked earlier in the thread and seems everyone is missing the picture.... If marcel is found guilty of "possetion of marine organism"
THEN (and correct me if i am wrong)
Everyone here (sponsors, members, moderators) is doing something illegal, and as such even by MASA's own RULES AND REGULATIONS, all posts, threads, articles etc should be deleted(since MASA dose not condone or permit illegal activity). And everyone fined and or jailed in accordance to the so called law.
Butcherman, IMO the above post from a foreigner was made to incite panic in the reefing comunity and as I have said I am sure that there is no law which will see us as unlawfully keeping marine fish and corals. I see it as a simple writen error, and I am sure it will be the centre of Marcels defence which he should focus on
viper357
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I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here, the document above is not a "charge sheet", it is simply a form saying that he has been informed of his rights, it is not an official charge sheet as such and the description of the reason for the detention in (1) is simply a brief/abbreviated description of the charge. The actual charge, with relevant regulations and sections and Act/s is on the docket itself. So to base judgement on this form is incorrect, the actual docket will have the exact charge on it. This is a standard form that must be issued to all persons detained, immaterial of the charge/s layed against the person, some people have 4 or 5 charges layed against them and the detaining officer just puts a basic description of one of the charges on this sheet.
An example of this is a person may have been detained for "Driving whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor", further charges added to the docket will be, "Reckless and/or Negligent Driving", "Inconsiderate Driving", "Disregarding a Red Traffic Light". Now on the form above, all they will put is "Drunken Driving".
So don't base your arguments on the form above, it's incorrect and has no bearing on the case or the actual charges brought against Marcel.
Marcel, sorry to hear about your circumstances, definitely not something a person wants to go through when they are simply doing something they love, best of luck to you, fight them all the way.
I dont think so.
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here, the document above is not a "charge sheet", it is simply a form saying that he has been informed of his rights, it is not an official charge sheet as such and the description of the reason for the detention in (1) is simply a brief/abbreviated description of the charge. The actual charge, with relevant regulations and sections and Act/s is on the docket itself. So to base judgement on this form is incorrect, the actual docket will have the exact charge on it. This is a standard form that must be issued to all persons detained, immaterial of the charge/s layed against the person, some people have 4 or 5 charges layed against them and the detaining officer just puts a basic description of one of the charges on this sheet.
An example of this is a person may have been detained for "Driving whilst under the influence of intoxicating liquor", further charges added to the docket will be, "Reckless and/or Negligent Driving", "Inconsiderate Driving", "Disregarding a Red Traffic Light". Now on the form above, all they will put is "Drunken Driving".
So don't base your arguments on the form above, it's incorrect and has no bearing on the case or the actual charges brought against Marcel.
Marcel, sorry to hear about your circumstances, definitely not something a person wants to go through when they are simply doing something they love, best of luck to you, fight them all the way.
Thanks for your opinion there Viper you have noted what alot of people me incl did not.
Thats your oppinion and thats fine but if our Mauritian friend is corrcet then the writter of that post is also responsible for a bulletin on his website with a title which reads BREEDING ALBINO OCELLARIS WILL GET YOU THROWN IN JAIL IN SOUTH AFRICA which is totally uncalled for
However with or without this bulletin my oppinion is still the same
Trev, I think, the writer is not complety wrong with his statement "BREEDING ALBINO OCELLARIS WILL GET YOU THROWN IN JAIL IN SOUTH AFRICA", it's somehow a way to bring the attention towards Marcel's problem. I mean at the end of the day, it shows the stupidity of the officers, the laws in SA.....
I can confirm from my 'little experience' here, most of the time the officers who are in charge of such investigations, themselves do not have pretty big know-how of our hobby
.....I mean they don't really care too much about our passion, they come at your place and waste your time with lots of stupidity...Do you have proof that it is legal to keep marines without a permit? If so, then maybe you could explain where the law has been broken. Breeding? How do you stop fish from doing what comes naturally? A commercial facility? Marcel hasn't gotten that far yet. It is hard to bring charges up on someone before the crime is committed.
Why would MWP want to cause panic in the reefing community? I can assure you there is nothing to gain. I see his posting as community awareness, urging people to write to your law makers to fix the problem before others are faced with the same issues.
Welcome to MASA MWP!!!!
We have been keeping marines in this country for many years without incident, if you can re-read my post you will see I said its highly unlikely........
I get highly fustrated when my/our country is made out to be anything but a fantastic and fair place, and I get the feeling that MWP's post does just that. I will defend my country with facts and my heart on my sleeve against such biast insinuations.
Another point I would like to make is that I have knowen Marcel for a long time, and although I do believe that he is not without fualt with regards to the his situation I can offer him my support as a friend and not fuel the fire which he is facing by puting the idea in the SA reefing community that what everyone here is doing is not legal. That is uncalled for and will help no one specialy not Marcel. I agree that there are sertainly issues which need to be addressed so that Marcel can continue to do what he loves and we apreciate and can learn from him but by going about it in the way that the writer of the bulliten non Reefbuilders did is just uncalled for
Cool down Gentlemen......
PEACE....
PEACE....
Welcome, Matt. I'm a big fan. Followed you for some time on MOFIB. Sorry that this is your first introduction to South Africa.
I hope you are right. However, I would still like to be clear on what the current law is, as I’m sure the other members would also.
I understand, but I also believe if this were to be happening in the US, or anywhere else, Matt’s reaction would have been the same.
Unfortunately the facts are not completely clear at this point. But I do encourage the posting of any facts that you or anyone else can find. I also support you defending your country.
I believe Matt is also supporting Marcel, as he does with anyone when it comes to captive breeding.
I also don’t want to see any of this turn into a bashing of South Africa. I don’t believe this is Matt’s intent.
What specifically do you have problems with regarding the posting on Reef Builders? It seems to me that the information came from MASA and Marcel.
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