Cool Dale, Now you know how to sex them.
Breeding information about Banggai Cardinals
- Thread starter LuckyFish
- Start date
Cool Dale, Now you know how to sex them.
i hope i can tell ,dont they have to be well fed to see?
another question ,obviously the bigger the pair the better?would it benefit to have a larger female?
If they are big enough, you can see it. Ask the LFS to feed them, then you can see it better.
Good question. Definitely NO!
A bigger female would produce to many eggs and she will force the poor guy to carry them all.
The bigger the male, the bigger his mouth, the more space for eggs.
That´s the way to go!
Wow, thanks for sharing all your info!! Fantastic reading up on the process. Tank bred is the way forward!
Sean, when I saw you posted in this thread, I knew what you wrote.
But I´m glad you used the words, "almost due". I expected the word, "overdue".
Yes, you are right and I must get my backside into gear. Will see to finish the next chapter this week.
Thanks for your interest.
Marcel
Part IV
Things you need to know, before you are going to raise banggai cardinal fry.
Before the male releases the fry, you have to make sure, that there is no oil on the surface of the water. Otherwise the babies will have problems to fill their swim bladder.
You should skim the surface shortly before the release of the fry with a small cup in any way. Pushing the cup slowly below the surface will make sure, that only the water from the surface flows into the cup, including the oil film (the film might not be visible).
The release, shelter or not?
Many people use artificial long spine urchins (weird DIY´s) to give the babies a shelter. If the adult male becomes very hungry after the release, he will eat the babies. Happened to me many times back in 1997. Here in SA, I did not experienced
this problem. There are many records, that the adult male is not eating the fry over night. Best thing is to separate them as soon as possible.
My experience was, the fry was swimming happily around their father and ignored my DIY urchin. Was my DIY really that bad?
If you notice after releasing the fry (which means immediately after the release),
there are a few babies swimming not normal and they seem to jump through the water column, scoop them out. Drain the water level of the cup (where these jumpers are in), to a minimum where they still can swim. They might be weak and can´t reach the surface in the tank or couldn´t get through the oily surface.
In the cup they got a chance to go through the surface to fill up their swim bladder.
If they still jump around after a few hours, don´t waste time and food. Cull them.
I hate doing this, but these jumpers won´t live long in any way. Put them into a freezer bag and let them fall asleep in the freezer.
If one or a few laying dead (or almost dead) on the bottom shortly after the release,
let them lay there. I had a few already, where I thought they won´t make it, but the next day they were fine.
What will be the first food?
Banggai babies can and should eat enriched brine shrimp from day one.
Enriching the brine shrimp is very important to avoid SFS
(see explanation in Part I).
The first picture I posted of the banggai babies is what we all want to see.
If you want to see it, look at the picture. Do not raise the fry in a plain glass tank.
A bucket, plumbed into your system will do. If you are using a glass tank, cover all four sides with dark plastic or paint the glass.
The top of the tank should be covered with card board. In the cardboard you have to cut a round hole, roughly 100 to 150 mm in diameter (depending on the size of your rearing tank).
It is very important, that the light shines only from the top into the rearing tank and
no light shines from the above onto the sides of the rearing tank.
Why?
The food (enriched brine shrimp) is attracted to the light and will stay in the centre
from the rearing tank. In the light you can easily see, if you have to add more food or not.
The main reason why the tank has to be covered like this is, the young banggais are not very good to estimate the distance to the glass. Any light that falls onto the sides
of the tank will attract the brine shrimp. Even worse, light is coming through the sides. The brine shrimp swims against the glass and the young cardinals (the adults too) strike their prey very hard. The result is a young and hungry cardinal, who knocks his jaws so badly against the glass, that he will have deformed jaws until the end of his fishlife. Deformed fish needs to be culled and deformed fish is not wanted on the market.
Any male with deformed jaws becomes useless for breeding purposes. Any female with deformed jaws can be used for breeding purposes as it is not a genetic deformation.
Rearing tank size:
The smaller the better in the beginning. 5 or 10 litre will do.
Food density:
Not important at all. If the tank is covered as explained above, the food will stay in the centre and the banggais will strike until there is nothing left or the babies are full.
In case there is nothing left, you fed to little.
In case there are many brine shrimps left, you fed to much.
In case there are still a few brine shrimp swimming, perfect. They won´t last long!
If you fed too much, the brine shrimp is loosing their nutrition value.
How often should I feed?
Feeding once a day won´t work as you will end up with SFS.
Feeding three times a day is the minimum and feeding 5 times a day will increase
their growth.
Weaning:
After two or three weeks of enriched brine shrimp, you should try other non live food in between the live food. But there is no perfect recipe.
It is recorded that you can wean banggais with cyclop eeze. My offspring did not take
cyclop eeze at all. I tried defrosted Cyclops, fisheggs, at a later stage bloodworms, chopped adult brines and chopped mysis.
Mysis was the best result.
This will be with each offspring different. I guess Steve and Rogan can tell us about their weaning process.
Lobster eggs works 100 %, but there are of the market here in SA.
Actually many people used lobster eggs as first food. Finally they ended up with SFS, because of the lack in HUFA´s.
Banggai babies are very picky eaters, when it comes to non live food.
It takes a while, until they are weaned and eat all the same stuff.
A few eat bloodworms, others not.
A few eat fish eggs, others not. And so on.
The best time to try to wean them is the feeding in the morning. Then they are very hungry.
Tip:
To all the breeder who have to go to work and nobody else is at home during the day, who is skilled enough to feed the babies.
Feed them before you go to work. Example: 7am
Feed them after you are back home. Example: 5pm
Feed them when the movie starts. Example: 8 to 9pm
Feed them before you go to bed. In that case, put up a small blue LED above the tank. The brines will swim in the centre and banggais are night active anyway.
Saleable size:
Banggais should have a saleable size in the age of 3 to 4 months.
Get rid of them after 4 to 5 months, otherwise they start fighting.
Banggais can reproduce themselves at the age of only 4 months.
Once a female carries eggs, the fight around the males starts.
Unfair enough, we have to fight for the females. I would prefer it the other way!
But then you don´t know what you get. Rather leave it as is!
What to do if I got more than one batch banggai babies within 6 weeks?
It makes sense to add the new fry after the first week to the older fry (maximum 6 weeks). Weaning will be much easier, because the small ones learn from the adults.
Quantity is a huge factor in terms of weaning. That´s in general and not for banggais only.
I weaned 300 clowns within days. It took me weeks to wean 30.
The more fry is swimming around, the bigger the chance the first few start eating dead food. That´s even with sea horses the same thing.
Weaning a few hundred horses is easy, weaning a few is almost impossible!
If there are any questions, please ask.
Things you need to know, before you are going to raise banggai cardinal fry.
Before the male releases the fry, you have to make sure, that there is no oil on the surface of the water. Otherwise the babies will have problems to fill their swim bladder.
You should skim the surface shortly before the release of the fry with a small cup in any way. Pushing the cup slowly below the surface will make sure, that only the water from the surface flows into the cup, including the oil film (the film might not be visible).
The release, shelter or not?
Many people use artificial long spine urchins (weird DIY´s) to give the babies a shelter. If the adult male becomes very hungry after the release, he will eat the babies. Happened to me many times back in 1997. Here in SA, I did not experienced
this problem. There are many records, that the adult male is not eating the fry over night. Best thing is to separate them as soon as possible.
My experience was, the fry was swimming happily around their father and ignored my DIY urchin. Was my DIY really that bad?
If you notice after releasing the fry (which means immediately after the release),
there are a few babies swimming not normal and they seem to jump through the water column, scoop them out. Drain the water level of the cup (where these jumpers are in), to a minimum where they still can swim. They might be weak and can´t reach the surface in the tank or couldn´t get through the oily surface.
In the cup they got a chance to go through the surface to fill up their swim bladder.
If they still jump around after a few hours, don´t waste time and food. Cull them.
I hate doing this, but these jumpers won´t live long in any way. Put them into a freezer bag and let them fall asleep in the freezer.
If one or a few laying dead (or almost dead) on the bottom shortly after the release,
let them lay there. I had a few already, where I thought they won´t make it, but the next day they were fine.
What will be the first food?
Banggai babies can and should eat enriched brine shrimp from day one.
Enriching the brine shrimp is very important to avoid SFS
(see explanation in Part I).
The first picture I posted of the banggai babies is what we all want to see.
If you want to see it, look at the picture. Do not raise the fry in a plain glass tank.
A bucket, plumbed into your system will do. If you are using a glass tank, cover all four sides with dark plastic or paint the glass.
The top of the tank should be covered with card board. In the cardboard you have to cut a round hole, roughly 100 to 150 mm in diameter (depending on the size of your rearing tank).
It is very important, that the light shines only from the top into the rearing tank and
no light shines from the above onto the sides of the rearing tank.
Why?
The food (enriched brine shrimp) is attracted to the light and will stay in the centre
from the rearing tank. In the light you can easily see, if you have to add more food or not.
The main reason why the tank has to be covered like this is, the young banggais are not very good to estimate the distance to the glass. Any light that falls onto the sides
of the tank will attract the brine shrimp. Even worse, light is coming through the sides. The brine shrimp swims against the glass and the young cardinals (the adults too) strike their prey very hard. The result is a young and hungry cardinal, who knocks his jaws so badly against the glass, that he will have deformed jaws until the end of his fishlife. Deformed fish needs to be culled and deformed fish is not wanted on the market.
Any male with deformed jaws becomes useless for breeding purposes. Any female with deformed jaws can be used for breeding purposes as it is not a genetic deformation.
Rearing tank size:
The smaller the better in the beginning. 5 or 10 litre will do.
Food density:
Not important at all. If the tank is covered as explained above, the food will stay in the centre and the banggais will strike until there is nothing left or the babies are full.
In case there is nothing left, you fed to little.
In case there are many brine shrimps left, you fed to much.
In case there are still a few brine shrimp swimming, perfect. They won´t last long!
If you fed too much, the brine shrimp is loosing their nutrition value.
How often should I feed?
Feeding once a day won´t work as you will end up with SFS.
Feeding three times a day is the minimum and feeding 5 times a day will increase
their growth.
Weaning:
After two or three weeks of enriched brine shrimp, you should try other non live food in between the live food. But there is no perfect recipe.
It is recorded that you can wean banggais with cyclop eeze. My offspring did not take
cyclop eeze at all. I tried defrosted Cyclops, fisheggs, at a later stage bloodworms, chopped adult brines and chopped mysis.
Mysis was the best result.
This will be with each offspring different. I guess Steve and Rogan can tell us about their weaning process.
Lobster eggs works 100 %, but there are of the market here in SA.
Actually many people used lobster eggs as first food. Finally they ended up with SFS, because of the lack in HUFA´s.
Banggai babies are very picky eaters, when it comes to non live food.
It takes a while, until they are weaned and eat all the same stuff.
A few eat bloodworms, others not.
A few eat fish eggs, others not. And so on.
The best time to try to wean them is the feeding in the morning. Then they are very hungry.
Tip:
To all the breeder who have to go to work and nobody else is at home during the day, who is skilled enough to feed the babies.
Feed them before you go to work. Example: 7am
Feed them after you are back home. Example: 5pm
Feed them when the movie starts. Example: 8 to 9pm
Feed them before you go to bed. In that case, put up a small blue LED above the tank. The brines will swim in the centre and banggais are night active anyway.
Saleable size:
Banggais should have a saleable size in the age of 3 to 4 months.
Get rid of them after 4 to 5 months, otherwise they start fighting.
Banggais can reproduce themselves at the age of only 4 months.
Once a female carries eggs, the fight around the males starts.
Unfair enough, we have to fight for the females. I would prefer it the other way!
But then you don´t know what you get. Rather leave it as is!
What to do if I got more than one batch banggai babies within 6 weeks?
It makes sense to add the new fry after the first week to the older fry (maximum 6 weeks). Weaning will be much easier, because the small ones learn from the adults.
Quantity is a huge factor in terms of weaning. That´s in general and not for banggais only.
I weaned 300 clowns within days. It took me weeks to wean 30.
The more fry is swimming around, the bigger the chance the first few start eating dead food. That´s even with sea horses the same thing.
Weaning a few hundred horses is easy, weaning a few is almost impossible!
If there are any questions, please ask.
Thanks once again for an extremely informative post Marcel.
Just a quick question or 2:
HUFA's. How does one enrich brine shrimp with HUFA's? Is it an additive which they eat? Where would one get these HUFA's? What are they commercially called?
On a side note, how much brine shrimp do fry consume? I can only assume that they will eat as much as they can fit into their bellies, if they are anything like fresh water fish?
How long should the Babies be in a small container/tank? I would guess until they are starting to crowd it? So one should actually have about 3 tanks for breeding purposes? One for the breeding tank, one for the really small fry tank and one for the grow out tank?
Are any of the breeding/rearing tanks using skimmers, Live Rock, pumps, etc? What type of filtration is needed in the tanks? I guess with a 5 - 10l container, you are just making sure to do very regular water changes? What size changes and how often should they be carried out?
In terms of water parameters, are there any specific parameters that induce spawning? What parameters should the breeding/grow out tanks be sitting at? Surely we should look at salinity levels and such? Is there an optimal salinity for fry? Should the same be said for PH,ALK, Ca levels, etc...
Can an increase or decrease in any of these levels be responsible for spawning behavior and inducing spawning?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am really keen on trying this once my setup is complete.
Just a quick question or 2:
HUFA's. How does one enrich brine shrimp with HUFA's? Is it an additive which they eat? Where would one get these HUFA's? What are they commercially called?
On a side note, how much brine shrimp do fry consume? I can only assume that they will eat as much as they can fit into their bellies, if they are anything like fresh water fish?
How long should the Babies be in a small container/tank? I would guess until they are starting to crowd it? So one should actually have about 3 tanks for breeding purposes? One for the breeding tank, one for the really small fry tank and one for the grow out tank?
Are any of the breeding/rearing tanks using skimmers, Live Rock, pumps, etc? What type of filtration is needed in the tanks? I guess with a 5 - 10l container, you are just making sure to do very regular water changes? What size changes and how often should they be carried out?
In terms of water parameters, are there any specific parameters that induce spawning? What parameters should the breeding/grow out tanks be sitting at? Surely we should look at salinity levels and such? Is there an optimal salinity for fry? Should the same be said for PH,ALK, Ca levels, etc...
Can an increase or decrease in any of these levels be responsible for spawning behavior and inducing spawning?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am really keen on trying this once my setup is complete.
Hi luckyfish, I've been tagging along on this thread as I'm also very interested in the breeding side.
I've bred 3 species of clown before one lot being an Allardi (african clown) male x a Goldbar Maroon clown female (by mistake) male I caught in the wild and the female lost her partner went "over the falls" into the side compartment. Anyway long story short, I would love to get back into breeding and was wondering if you knew of anyone near Durban that is breeding Bangaai's that I may buy a few?
Thanks Brent
I've bred 3 species of clown before one lot being an Allardi (african clown) male x a Goldbar Maroon clown female (by mistake) male I caught in the wild and the female lost her partner went "over the falls" into the side compartment. Anyway long story short, I would love to get back into breeding and was wondering if you knew of anyone near Durban that is breeding Bangaai's that I may buy a few?
Thanks Brent
Marcel , thanks again for another informative part !
It looks like Sean and me couldn't wait any longer for the next part !
On the end it looks like I got two big males , better for me ....... just have to look for some more males and then the females !
It looks like Sean and me couldn't wait any longer for the next part !
On the end it looks like I got two big males , better for me ....... just have to look for some more males and then the females !
Im also very interested in breeding, but where can i get a pair?
To day I had the privilege of sighting a bunch of tiny banggai cardinal juveniles. These youngsters were the progeny of a family of about 6 adults living in a community reef aquaria. Now i have seen many cardinal parents attempt to raise youngsters in aquaeria before but this was something fascinating to me. The largish cardinal youngsters were getting protection by a diadema (Urchin). they were swimming in and out of the diadema spines like a clown fish would in an anemone. Whilst i was there the diadema expelled a smoke like substance. Probably having a shit, the cardinal youngsters went berserk.
Not sure if this has been seen before but very interesting. Just wanted to share.
Not sure if this has been seen before but very interesting. Just wanted to share.
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Keith, your urchin spawned. Eggs or sperm or both. I'm not into the sexlife of urchins.
Please post more informations about this tank. Size, for how long are the six adults in there, are they swimming in pairs? Any fights? Etc.