so keen to try this,but im a student fun haha!
Breeding information about Banggai Cardinals
- Thread starter LuckyFish
- Start date
Marcel , I'm already busy with the planning !I've got extra two standard 3 foot tanks on a stand that will work perfect for this project !
Thanks for Part 3 - it helped me a lot !
Glad to hear, Schalk. That means to me you are on board and please post your results in this thread or better in your own. The problem you got know is, you need to find two big males or if you build the banggai breeder, you can start with six males.
As I mentioned, it will be a problem to find big males. Your big females will produce around 60 eggs at the time. So you need to find a big mouth? Does anybody got a single male? I am sure, Schalk would swap your male for a pair after he bred them.
I reckon 30 to 36 hours. Check after 24 hours. The thickness of the egg shells varies, so they will hatch all inbetween 8 hours.
[I said:
Decapsulate and you will shorten the hatching time to about 12 hours (possibly as short as 8) and have healthier (more nutritious) nhbs and a better hatch rate.
Hi, definitely was thinking along these lines for Rogan. I think his release of the fry period is longer than two weeks, I am sure it is more than likely about three with the pair he has. I am sure it varies from system to system and even individual to individual. That would give more time for fattening up the male though. I think using artificial urchins or real diadema long spined urchins are useful for the fry to settle out to. The babies will all concentrate to the urchin and also be protected from the male (if he decides he is hungry). In mixed displays this would protect them from other fish. I think this also gives the male confidence that he can release the fry and would go some way towards the male holding the eggs the right length of time and not holding them for too long.Part III The "Banggai breeder" designed by Marcel Triessl
As mentioned right in the beginning, the only way to breed Banggai´s in high quantity is the "Banggai Breeder".
This is a set up for a broodstock tank planned from my side, which is like a ***** house. Sorry, i think that´s the right word. The tank got a big mating area and attached 4 small "rooms" to keep 3 or 4 males. The idea is to separate the male from the female within the first 7 days after spawning. Open the door, chase him (gently) into the "room", close the door and let the neighbour (next male) into the the mating area. Same lady, another gentlemen. The result will be 3 or 4 "rooms" with males, where they don´t have any stress. You don´t have to feed them, just watching. They can release the babies in this "room" and after he spit all out, Feed him fat or if the mating area is empty, chase him back to the female. The female should be alone in the mating area and her last spawn should be a few days ago. The hungry male will have around 10 days to pick up weight (longer if you breed with 4 males), until she is able to spawn again. Keeping them as a pair, does not make sense to me, because why must she wait until he finished his job. My female dropped always the ball off eggs on the gravel, because he got his mouth full. I´m sure that´s the way how it works in the wild. As mentioned earlier in this thread, ORA does it similar. They also work with 3 or 4 male and 1 female. Steve and Rogan also figured it out, that pair breeding is not the right way to go.
I did not have the time, the cash or the space to build this "***** house".
Any suggestions for a better word? Sounds kinda rude.
I am very confident, this size of "Banggai breeder" will work for captive bred broodstock, because they are use to humans, glass tanks and limited space.
For wild caught broodstock, it might be better to make the "rooms" bigger, like 30 x 30 cm. I am not saying, this "Banggai breeder" is the perfect thing. It makes sense to try it and maybe to modify it after the results are present.
Here he is, the "Banggai Breeder".
The "rooms" are planned 4 times 20x20cm x 40cm high. (20x20x20cm is a mistake from the designer).
That´s how it should work.
As an example, 3 males or used (M1, M2 and M3), but only 1 female (F).
Date in red is the spawning event and the date in green is the release of the fry.
01.01.2011 F and M1 are together in the mating area. She spawned and he
is carrying the eggs.
10.01.2011 F and M2 are in the mating area. M1 is in his room.
15.01.2011 F spawned and M2 is carrying the eggs.
25.01.2011 F and M3 are in the mating area. M1 and M2 are both in their own room.
29.01.2011 M1 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
into a special tank (bucket). See Part IV still to come).
30.01.2011F spawned and M3 is carrying the eggs.
02.02.2011 F and M1 are in the mating area. M3 is in his room.
13.02.2011 M2 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
into a special tank.
15.02.2011 F spawned and M1 is carrying the eggs. He had 2 weeks time to pick
up weight!!!!
27.02.2011 M3 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
into a special tank.
03.03.2011 F spawned and M2 is carrying the eggs. He had 2 weeks time to pick
up weight!!!!
and so on!
Take note: We will have roughly every two weeks a spawn and every two weeks a
release of the fry. Roughly we should get 50 to 60 babies per month
from one female and 3 males.
The big benefit is to keep the fry from the first release until and including the third, maybe the fourth release together in a special tank, fed on enriched brine shrimp from day 1. Don´t worry, they can eat the bigger brines.
The latest addition of fry will learn from the older ones.
So know I am very curious about your opinion, guys? Hope we get a nice discussion and brainstorming going to start with this or similar project to save this species.
Let´s show the world, we South African´s (and the Germans:razz
If we get that right, I will do the posting for our achievement on the important forums all over the world. I am already member of the most of them. The post would
include all people who worked on this project. I am not going to post the result as my achievement. My idea is already posted on RC, but you know these Americans.
We have to come up with facts!
Does that sound good? It might be, that I´m a bit too passionate about breeding and I am not so sure if I can boost your passion for marines to be passionate for breeding Banggai´s.
Sorry, I do not have experience with them.
Me either.
Steve, two weeks is the minimum time she need to produce eggs in my opinion. It is nutrional, the better the food, the faster she spawns.
I also tried the artificial urchin. My male spit them out into the water column and the babies were swimming happily around their father.
Back in the nineties, I had it many times that the father was eating the babies.
I reckon, there is biological timer ticking and after x-amount of time, he will eat them.
You and Rogan, what are you feeding to the broodstock?
I also tried the artificial urchin. My male spit them out into the water column and the babies were swimming happily around their father.
Back in the nineties, I had it many times that the father was eating the babies.
I reckon, there is biological timer ticking and after x-amount of time, he will eat them.
You and Rogan, what are you feeding to the broodstock?
Nutrition is varied, flake, frozen mysis, frozen krill, fish eggs and occasionally live mysids and amphipods at the present time.
In the past we fed more live foods including amphipods, mysids, very small shrimps and other live invertebrates. Especially when we first got the banggais (I believe they were wild caught) as they were hesitant to take flake and some dead foods, they soon were taking any meaty foods including chopped fish. They received large quantities of live foods when we had the tigertail seahorses as they would initially only eat live foods, being wild caught and initially feeding at night mainly. Unfortunately we were unable to raise the seahorse young when we were successful at getting them to breed as they were too small to eat nhbs and we did not have rotifer.
In the past we fed more live foods including amphipods, mysids, very small shrimps and other live invertebrates. Especially when we first got the banggais (I believe they were wild caught) as they were hesitant to take flake and some dead foods, they soon were taking any meaty foods including chopped fish. They received large quantities of live foods when we had the tigertail seahorses as they would initially only eat live foods, being wild caught and initially feeding at night mainly. Unfortunately we were unable to raise the seahorse young when we were successful at getting them to breed as they were too small to eat nhbs and we did not have rotifer.
Wow Luckyfish! This has been an incredibly informative article! Thanks so much for taking the time out to create this thread.
Being a new comer to marine fish, I am constantly reminded of how hard they are to breed. Well, in comparison to fresh water fish. The whole reason I like fishkeeping has probably got to be the husbandry of selected species. To witness their breeding activities is truely something to behold for any fishkeeper, of any experience level. Even to see your very first guppy fry is something to behold for a beginner and a veteran alike.
On a separate note: What kind of filtration should be going into the breeding tank? Are you using live rock as the filtration? Are you using skimmers and overflows? What is keeping the tank clean? Secondly, how often are you doing water changes and what kind of tank maintenance needs to be performed?
Feeding wise, how often are you feeding the fry and how much are you feeding?
Thank you once again for this article. It makes me seriously want to start a small breeding setup and I haven't even got my first marine reef tank up and running yet!
Being a new comer to marine fish, I am constantly reminded of how hard they are to breed. Well, in comparison to fresh water fish. The whole reason I like fishkeeping has probably got to be the husbandry of selected species. To witness their breeding activities is truely something to behold for any fishkeeper, of any experience level. Even to see your very first guppy fry is something to behold for a beginner and a veteran alike.
On a separate note: What kind of filtration should be going into the breeding tank? Are you using live rock as the filtration? Are you using skimmers and overflows? What is keeping the tank clean? Secondly, how often are you doing water changes and what kind of tank maintenance needs to be performed?
Feeding wise, how often are you feeding the fry and how much are you feeding?
Thank you once again for this article. It makes me seriously want to start a small breeding setup and I haven't even got my first marine reef tank up and running yet!
2nd batch baby card's
Hi there, my first batch of baby cardinals were not successful (sorry Afsal, know u were keen). I only had one survivor (thanks to hubby!) which is in my sump (not hubby, although he should be!) and very happy. He is too small to go in with the big fish and too large to stay with the new babies. The babies kept disappearing and there was something wrong with the pump... turns out they were getting sucked in and being minced. Ugh
Well the 2nd batch has arrived and 19 have survived 6 weeks now.
Problem... people don't want to buy them this small and do the brine shrimp thingie and fish shops are concerned about survival rate after handing over the cash. They only want them at around 3/4 months so I have now devised another plan for an easier hatchery than the coke bottles.
If all goes well I will be ready to sell in 2 months to those that don't have large hungry fish in their tanks :nono: or to a fish shop prepared to pay what I think all this work is worth and mostly to save the species in the wild. They still importing at R120 and retailing at R260 in my LFS.
Any other breeders know what a reasonable asking price would be?
ta - Barbs
Hi there, my first batch of baby cardinals were not successful (sorry Afsal, know u were keen). I only had one survivor (thanks to hubby!) which is in my sump (not hubby, although he should be!) and very happy. He is too small to go in with the big fish and too large to stay with the new babies. The babies kept disappearing and there was something wrong with the pump... turns out they were getting sucked in and being minced. Ugh
Well the 2nd batch has arrived and 19 have survived 6 weeks now.
Problem... people don't want to buy them this small and do the brine shrimp thingie and fish shops are concerned about survival rate after handing over the cash. They only want them at around 3/4 months so I have now devised another plan for an easier hatchery than the coke bottles.
If all goes well I will be ready to sell in 2 months to those that don't have large hungry fish in their tanks :nono: or to a fish shop prepared to pay what I think all this work is worth and mostly to save the species in the wild. They still importing at R120 and retailing at R260 in my LFS.
Any other breeders know what a reasonable asking price would be?
ta - Barbs
Well the 2nd batch has arrived and 19 have survived 6 weeks now.
Problem... people don't want to buy them this small and do the brine shrimp thingie and fish shops are concerned about survival rate after handing over the cash. They only want them at around 3/4 months so I have now devised another plan for an easier hatchery than the coke bottles.
If all goes well I will be ready to sell in 2 months to those that don't have large hungry fish in their tanks :nono: or to a fish shop prepared to pay what I think all this work is worth and mostly to save the species in the wild. They still importing at R120 and retailing at R260 in my LFS.
Any other breeders know what a reasonable asking price would be?
ta - Barbs
Are you enriching the brines with HUFA`s? If not, I wouldn´t buy your babies.
That´s the LFS concern. To buy fish who die because of SFS!
After six weeks you should get them of the brines to frozen food. Chopped mysis, brine shrimps, cyclops, maybe cyclop eeze (not every cardinal eats cyclop eeze).
If you can get 120 Rand, you will be lucky. Here in CT they sell captive bred Cardinals for 160 Rand.
The babies should be adapted to eating other foods by six weeks as Luckyfish said, they will usually take other foods from day 1, including pods, chopped frozen mysis and cyclopeeze (which is a bit of a pain to feed because it tends to float). After a short while try fish eggs. Rogan hardly uses nhbs except when he had excess from trying to raise peppermints.
Goin 2 purchase myself a pair this weekend