Breeding information about Banggai Cardinals

Discussion in 'Breeding Articles' started by LuckyFish, 9 Feb 2010.

  1. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Is it that what you want?

    25074b71883a215ed.jpg

    26 tiny banggais´s after their first "breakfast".

    Dane was actually the one, who made me write this thread.


    Pterapogon kauderni-Banggai cardinal

    this species lives around the banggai islands (Indonesia) and is only found there in an area of 9.500 square kilometers.

    To provide as much information as possible in one thread, here is the link again,
    which was posted originally by Dane.

    Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinalfish)

    This is the link to an article written by Matthew Wittenrich

    Boycotting the Wild Banggai Cardinalfish - Microcosm Aquarium Explorer
    Almost all the following informations are based on my experiences. All the posted pictures in this thread were taken by myself.
    I know, there are many banggai breeder in SA, like Steve, please post your experiences here, to get as many new breeder as possible on board.
    For the record, I will help and support anybody (except the person below, he is breeding constantly a other species:razz:), who is going to breed the banggai cardinal.

    25074b7194a91f245.jpg

    Where do I start?

    The banggai cardinal reached the marine ornamental fish market for the first time in
    1994 or 1995.
    In 1997, while I was still living in Germany, I bred a few hundred of them. With little success, because that time back, we were not aware of the Sudden Fright Syndrome.

    Explanation SFS = Sudden fright syndrome (Explanation originally from MOFIB)

    A common problem caused by insufficent HUFAs in the diet during larval development. Symptomatic fish will freeze or faint and drift to the bottom. SFS is brought on by sudden stimuli, including turning on the lights, additions of food, and sudden disturbances (including netting). What actually happens is the stimuli essentially short-circuits (shocks) the nervous system and the fish becomes paralyzed. Depending on the severity and frequency of the event(s), is often lethal.
    SFS is readily prevented and corrected, through enrichment of live foods using phytoplanktons (alive or pastes) or if your using dead or prepared foods, then the use of a liquid HUFA supplement such as SELCO, SELCON, ZOECON,etc.

    The last sentense does not make sense to me, because liquid HUFA suppliments are also used to enrich live food like rotifer and brine shrimps.

    Explanation HUFA (Explanation originally from MOFIB)

    Used interchangably as shorthand typically for the OMEGA-3 fatty acids required in mariculture to ensure proper larval and juvenile development. Typically used in reference to fatty acid supplementation.

    Take NOTE:

    HUFAs are required for ALL species to avoid SFS and other problems in development of larvae (fish, shrimps, etc).

    The banggai cardinal is a species, which matures to adulthood very fast, compare to other species (clowns, etc.). At the age of only four months, the still small cardinals are starting to mate and to spawn. I experienced this at the age of five months.

    Why is it so easy to breed the banggai´s (only if HUFA level is sufficent)

    The banggai cardinal male releases fish and NOT larvae. The tiny banggai´s,
    10 to 12 mm, are a split image of their parents, except the white spots.
    They eat from day one freshly hatched brine shrimps. From day 3 I recommend to feed only HUFA enriched live food.

    How many eggs and what size are they?
    For sure, the bigger the male, the more eggs he can keep in his mouth and the more babies will be released.
    A pair at the age of five months can produce (female) and keep (male) 25 eggs.
    A pair at the age of one year, can produce and keep a minimum of 55 eggs.

    These are 55 eggs. The eggs are rougly 2.5 to 3 mm in diameter.


    25074b719b2de758f.jpg

    Why did this happen to me, that I could take this picture?
    I had a discussion via email with the well known German breeder Wolfgang Mai about my theory. He wrote in his latest book, a female banggai can produce eggs every 35 to 40 days. I should not have used the word B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T in my reply. He never contacted me again.:(

    My theory was:
    In the wild, the female spawns and fills the males mouth with the eggs. She probably cares about him for a few days. He will keep distance to the group and she will take on the next male. To me, it was nonsense, that a fish, with such low reproducing rate, will waste plenty of time with beeing monogamous (like seahorses).
    I believed, they live a better life, just like the above pictured person, in polygamy.

    The proof:
    This ball eggs (picture above) was released and dropped onto the gravel, exactly 14 days after her previous spawn. So my theory was proven.
    I had a chat with ORA in Florida about my plans of breeding banggais in higher quantity (remind me please to write about it). ORA could not tell me how they do it, because of their privacy policy. But I was told, they would do it similar.

    From 4 pairs I bought, only one pair survived. My guess, they were caught with cyanide.
    The last pair managed to release one batch (see first picture).
    Every following spawn (every second week) was infertile. I could see it many times, when he was turning the white eggs in his mouth until maximum day 3.

    How many babies can be produce from one batch?
    As far as I know, the maximum release of fish babies was 39 in total. In average
    25 to 30 are the standard.

    How long does it take, until the fish babies hatch?
    Hatching takes place in his mouth after more or less 20 days (depending on temparature).

    When is he releasing the babies?
    Depending on the water temperatur, he will release the babies after 24 to 30 days.

    Why is the male not eating during this period?
    I had a chat with a guy from the states and he told me, he got proof, that a male was eating newly hatched brineshrimp, while his mouth was full with babies.
    It is believed and I actually got the proof, that the banggai male is using X-amount of eggs during the period, where he is carrying the eggs in his mouth as an emergency food supply.
    Remember? The picture with 55 eggs? Never was a release bigger than 40 babies.
    It might be, that a female can produce 60 or 70 eggs. Who knows.

    I will continue later, otherwise you guys are getting tired of reading!



     
    Last edited by a moderator: 31 Jan 2017
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  3. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    yea, just as I got tired reading.

    I did read another reefer attempt at breeding Banggai Cardinals. And he had then in a ratio of one female for two males. Do not ask me where I got that, but it was in the www

    So it can be done.
     
  4. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Part II

    How to manage to fertilze eggs and deposit them in the mouth?

    Sounds funny, but I don´t know how to put this.
    I was always wondering, how the male managed to fertilize the eggs and to "swallow" them? I know, he doesn´t swallow them. Any other word suggestion?
    Everytime, when I thought, now they will do it, they didn´t. I never had a chance to peep how he get this acrobatic act right.
    Now I know and I got proof.
    I kept all the offspring (26) in a 100 litre tank. I want to see, how long does it take, until they start fighting and killing each other.
    So around the age of five months, the first few males were swimming around with the mouth full of eggs. I did not expect any offspring, because as a firsttimer they have to learn their business. One day I took this shot.

    25074b71cca71fd50.jpg

    It is a bit tricky to see, but the male got the mouth already full.
    Take note of the red circle. There are 3 eggs hanging on a string and she was chasing him for hours, demanding to take the last 3 eggs as well.
    So now we know, how it works.
    The eggs coming out of her ovapositor, but they stick together like glue and hanging on a string. He can fertilize the eggs, while they are hanging and then he "bites" the egg ball off. Easy, when you know how they do it.

    The most interesting question will be this one.

    How to sex them?

    That is a bit tricky. The best way to do it is, to feed the cardinals until they won´t eat any more. So their belly is full and round. Now you can see the difference.
    That works for adults, but for 5 months old cardinals, it is extremly difficult to see.

    Take a closer look at the following pictures.
    This one is a female.

    25074b71ce825bd09.jpg

    Between the fins you can see these "thorns". There must be word for it. Steve? Can you help out with that?
    The first thorn is sometimes not visible. If visible, both thorns are thin and the second thorn is much longer than the first one.



    This is a male in the picture below.

    25074b71cf4087aec.jpg

    The males first thorn is much thicker than the second. Shaped as a triangle.

    I have to admit, that this explanation is coming from Wolgang Mai.
    As you could read above, I don´t always agree with him. This time, he is right and I can second that.
     
  5. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator

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    Thanks for a great article, I love reading them and look forward to many more
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  6. Dane

    Dane

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    great article luckyfish. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
     
  7. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    Once again - Fantastic Article, Marcel! Many thanks for sharing this wonderful knowledge!
     
  8. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Thanks, but I am not finished with that. Have to write at least Part III if not IV.
     
  9. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator

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    i look forward to it!!!
    cant wait
     
  10. JD167

    JD167

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    Very nice article LuckyFish! Quick question. When hatching brine shrimp, should you use an airstone in the hatchery or are the larger bubbles from the airline hose sufficiant?
     
  11. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Quick answer, airline bubbles are good. No airstone needed
     
  12. ziyaadb

    ziyaadb

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    great stuff man. These are a fish that i would really love in my next tank
     
  13. mandarinman

    mandarinman

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    marcel i stand in awe of this article wow!
     
  14. ReefMaster_SA

    ReefMaster_SA

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    Wow thanks GUy , that really cool .Cant to start some breeding
     
  15. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Thanks Glen, for a change a nice comment from you.:lol:

    Seriously, I am imprest about myself. It is like, I am getting better and better.
    Three years agao, I could not speak a word english.
    I don´t know, if I am still capable to write this in German. I have to do some training here.
    Matt Pedersen, the guy who bred the filefish, contacted me. And because of this, the UK magazine PFK (Practical Fishkeeping) and the US magazine CORAL contacted me as well. They want me to write an article about my albinos.

    It is really getting hectic. You see, they let me write a whole article in english. And you? ;)
     
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  16. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    Awesome article, well done
     
  17. Steve Warren

    Steve Warren

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    Hi Marcel, great thread, really impressed. I did not realise that both sexes had two ventral spines. I was under the impression that the male had two and the female one. I feel a bit stupid now as Rogan presently has one breeding pair and what we thought were three males:biggrin: that are big enough to breed with. I was considering trying to set up a system with the one female and four males. It would allow the males to fatten up between carrying young.
    It makes me wonder if Rogan has more that could be paired up. SFS seems to be a big problem with Banggais and also choking (trying to eat more than they can swallow). Power failures (ESKOM) are not a Banggai breeders friend. Rogan lost 27 (if I remember correctly) in one episode with the power tripping and coming on again when they were in a 24/7 sump though in that case it was an earth leakage tripping event and not ESKOM.
     
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  18. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Steve, choking is a result of SFS. Once the receive the right amount of HUFAs, choking won't be happen again. Breeding with one female and 3 or 4 males, is the only way to go. Everything else is a waste of broodstock, space and time. With 2 females and 6 males, you can breed 100 fish per month. You need only two broodstock tanks, one 10 litre bucket for the first 4 weeks and two tanks of 100 litre. Let me explain this in next Part.
     
  19. Viper

    Viper

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    Marcel , great stuff !! This thread and article of yours explain everything so well !! :thumbup:
    I'm also keen in breeding Banggai's !
    I've got hooked when I saw a male Banggai up close with the little ones in his mouth ! ;)
    Once again - great article !! :thumbup:
     
  20. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Thanks Viper. Thanks to all. At least it´s worth to write these articles and to get some people hooked. Especially Banggai breeders. Right now, the most important species.
    A very hardy fish with his own character, if captive bred.
    Please, do not buy any wild caught Banggai, only if you want to bred them and you can´t get CB (CaptiveBred) ones.
     
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  21. OP
    LuckyFish

    LuckyFish

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    Part III The "Banggai breeder" designed by Marcel Triessl;)

    As mentioned right in the beginning, the only way to breed Banggai´s in high quantity is the "Banggai Breeder".

    This is a set up for a broodstock tank planned from my side, which is like a ***** house. Sorry, i think that´s the right word. The tank got a big mating area and attached 4 small "rooms" to keep 3 or 4 males. The idea is to separate the male from the female within the first 7 days after spawning. Open the door, chase him (gently) into the "room", close the door and let the neighbour (next male) into the the mating area. Same lady, another gentlemen. The result will be 3 or 4 "rooms" with males, where they don´t have any stress. You don´t have to feed them, just watching. They can release the babies in this "room" and after he spit all out, Feed him fat or if the mating area is empty, chase him back to the female. The female should be alone in the mating area and her last spawn should be a few days ago. The hungry male will have around 10 days to pick up weight (longer if you breed with 4 males), until she is able to spawn again. Keeping them as a pair, does not make sense to me, because why must she wait until he finished his job. My female dropped always the ball off eggs on the gravel, because he got his mouth full. I´m sure that´s the way how it works in the wild. As mentioned earlier in this thread, ORA does it similar. They also work with 3 or 4 male and 1 female. Steve and Rogan also figured it out, that pair breeding is not the right way to go.

    I did not have the time, the cash or the space to build this "***** house".
    Any suggestions for a better word? Sounds kinda rude.

    I am very confident, this size of "Banggai breeder" will work for captive bred broodstock, because they are use to humans, glass tanks and limited space.
    For wild caught broodstock, it might be better to make the "rooms" bigger, like 30 x 30 cm. I am not saying, this "Banggai breeder" is the perfect thing. It makes sense to try it and maybe to modify it after the results are present.

    Here he is, the "Banggai Breeder".


    25074b7832025552c.jpg

    The "rooms" are planned 4 times 20x20cm x 40cm high. (20x20x20cm is a mistake from the designer).:p

    That´s how it should work.
    As an example, 3 males or used (M1, M2 and M3), but only 1 female (F).
    Date in red is the spawning event and the date in green is the release of the fry.

    01.01.2011 F and M1 are together in the mating area. She spawned and he
    is carrying the eggs.
    10.01.2011 F and M2 are in the mating area. M1 is in his room.
    15.01.2011 F spawned and M2 is carrying the eggs.
    25.01.2011 F and M3 are in the mating area. M1 and M2 are both in their own room.
    29.01.2011 M1 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
    into a special tank (bucket). See Part IV still to come).
    30.01.2011F spawned and M3 is carrying the eggs.
    02.02.2011 F and M1 are in the mating area. M3 is in his room.
    13.02.2011 M2 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
    into a special tank.
    15.02.2011 F spawned and M1 is carrying the eggs. He had 2 weeks time to pick
    up weight!!!!
    27.02.2011 M3 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
    into a special tank.
    03.03.2011 F spawned and M2 is carrying the eggs. He had 2 weeks time to pick
    up weight!!!!

    and so on!

    Take note: We will have roughly every two weeks a spawn and every two weeks a
    release of the fry. Roughly we should get 50 to 60 babies per month
    from one female and 3 males.

    The big benefit is to keep the fry from the first release until and including the third, maybe the fourth release together in a special tank, fed on enriched brine shrimp from day 1. Don´t worry, they can eat the bigger brines.
    The latest addition of fry will learn from the older ones.

    So know I am very curious about your opinion, guys? Hope we get a nice discussion and brainstorming going to start with this or similar project to save this species.
    Let´s show the world, we South African´s (and the Germans:razz:) have the perfect recipe how to breed succesful Banggai cardinals in quantity.

    If we get that right, I will do the posting for our achievement on the important forums all over the world. I am already member of the most of them. The post would
    include all people who worked on this project. I am not going to post the result as my achievement. My idea is already posted on RC, but you know these Americans.
    We have to come up with facts!

    Does that sound good? It might be, that I´m a bit too passionate about breeding and I am not so sure if I can boost your passion for marines to be passionate for breeding Banggai´s.


     
    Last edited: 15 Feb 2010

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