LuckyFish

Breeding information about Banggai Cardinals

  1. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish MASA Contributor

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    LuckyFish submitted a new Showcase Item:

    Breeding information about Banggai Cardinals

    Read more about this showcase item here...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 12 Mar 2016
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  3. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    yea, just as I got tired reading.

    I did read another reefer attempt at breeding Banggai Cardinals. And he had then in a ratio of one female for two males. Do not ask me where I got that, but it was in the www

    So it can be done.
     
  4. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Part II

    How to manage to fertilze eggs and deposit them in the mouth?

    Sounds funny, but I don´t know how to put this.
    I was always wondering, how the male managed to fertilize the eggs and to "swallow" them? I know, he doesn´t swallow them. Any other word suggestion?
    Everytime, when I thought, now they will do it, they didn´t. I never had a chance to peep how he get this acrobatic act right.
    Now I know and I got proof.
    I kept all the offspring (26) in a 100 litre tank. I want to see, how long does it take, until they start fighting and killing each other.
    So around the age of five months, the first few males were swimming around with the mouth full of eggs. I did not expect any offspring, because as a firsttimer they have to learn their business. One day I took this shot.

    [​IMG]

    It is a bit tricky to see, but the male got the mouth already full.
    Take note of the red circle. There are 3 eggs hanging on a string and she was chasing him for hours, demanding to take the last 3 eggs as well.
    So now we know, how it works.
    The eggs coming out of her ovapositor, but they stick together like glue and hanging on a string. He can fertilize the eggs, while they are hanging and then he "bites" the egg ball off. Easy, when you know how they do it.

    The most interesting question will be this one.

    How to sex them?

    That is a bit tricky. The best way to do it is, to feed the cardinals until they won´t eat any more. So their belly is full and round. Now you can see the difference.
    That works for adults, but for 5 months old cardinals, it is extremly difficult to see.

    Take a closer look at the following pictures.
    This one is a female.

    [​IMG]

    Between the fins you can see these "thorns". There must be word for it. Steve? Can you help out with that?
    The first thorn is sometimes not visible. If visible, both thorns are thin and the second thorn is much longer than the first one.



    This is a male in the picture below.

    [​IMG]

    The males first thorn is much thicker than the second. Shaped as a triangle.

    I have to admit, that this explanation is coming from Wolgang Mai.
    As you could read above, I don´t always agree with him. This time, he is right and I can second that.
     
  5. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Thanks for a great article, I love reading them and look forward to many more
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  6. Dane

    Dane

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    great article luckyfish. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
     
  7. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    Once again - Fantastic Article, Marcel! Many thanks for sharing this wonderful knowledge!
     
  8. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Thanks, but I am not finished with that. Have to write at least Part III if not IV.
     
  9. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i look forward to it!!!
    cant wait
     
  10. JD167

    JD167

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    Very nice article LuckyFish! Quick question. When hatching brine shrimp, should you use an airstone in the hatchery or are the larger bubbles from the airline hose sufficiant?
     
  11. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Quick answer, airline bubbles are good. No airstone needed
     
  12. ziyaadb

    ziyaadb

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    great stuff man. These are a fish that i would really love in my next tank
     
  13. mandarinman

    mandarinman

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    marcel i stand in awe of this article wow!
     
  14. ReefMaster_SA

    ReefMaster_SA

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    Wow thanks GUy , that really cool .Cant to start some breeding
     
  15. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Thanks Glen, for a change a nice comment from you.:lol:

    Seriously, I am imprest about myself. It is like, I am getting better and better.
    Three years agao, I could not speak a word english.
    I don´t know, if I am still capable to write this in German. I have to do some training here.
    Matt Pedersen, the guy who bred the filefish, contacted me. And because of this, the UK magazine PFK (Practical Fishkeeping) and the US magazine CORAL contacted me as well. They want me to write an article about my albinos.

    It is really getting hectic. You see, they let me write a whole article in english. And you? ;)
     
  16. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    Awesome article, well done
     
  17. Steve Warren

    Steve Warren

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    Hi Marcel, great thread, really impressed. I did not realise that both sexes had two ventral spines. I was under the impression that the male had two and the female one. I feel a bit stupid now as Rogan presently has one breeding pair and what we thought were three males:biggrin: that are big enough to breed with. I was considering trying to set up a system with the one female and four males. It would allow the males to fatten up between carrying young.
    It makes me wonder if Rogan has more that could be paired up. SFS seems to be a big problem with Banggais and also choking (trying to eat more than they can swallow). Power failures (ESKOM) are not a Banggai breeders friend. Rogan lost 27 (if I remember correctly) in one episode with the power tripping and coming on again when they were in a 24/7 sump though in that case it was an earth leakage tripping event and not ESKOM.
     
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  18. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Steve, choking is a result of SFS. Once the receive the right amount of HUFAs, choking won't be happen again. Breeding with one female and 3 or 4 males, is the only way to go. Everything else is a waste of broodstock, space and time. With 2 females and 6 males, you can breed 100 fish per month. You need only two broodstock tanks, one 10 litre bucket for the first 4 weeks and two tanks of 100 litre. Let me explain this in next Part.
     
  19. Viper

    Viper

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    Marcel , great stuff !! This thread and article of yours explain everything so well !! :thumbup:
    I'm also keen in breeding Banggai's !
    I've got hooked when I saw a male Banggai up close with the little ones in his mouth ! ;)
    Once again - great article !! :thumbup:
     
  20. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Thanks Viper. Thanks to all. At least it´s worth to write these articles and to get some people hooked. Especially Banggai breeders. Right now, the most important species.
    A very hardy fish with his own character, if captive bred.
    Please, do not buy any wild caught Banggai, only if you want to bred them and you can´t get CB (CaptiveBred) ones.
     
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  21. LuckyFish

    LuckyFish Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Part III The "Banggai breeder" designed by Marcel Triessl;)

    As mentioned right in the beginning, the only way to breed Banggai´s in high quantity is the "Banggai Breeder".

    This is a set up for a broodstock tank planned from my side, which is like a ***** house. Sorry, i think that´s the right word. The tank got a big mating area and attached 4 small "rooms" to keep 3 or 4 males. The idea is to separate the male from the female within the first 7 days after spawning. Open the door, chase him (gently) into the "room", close the door and let the neighbour (next male) into the the mating area. Same lady, another gentlemen. The result will be 3 or 4 "rooms" with males, where they don´t have any stress. You don´t have to feed them, just watching. They can release the babies in this "room" and after he spit all out, Feed him fat or if the mating area is empty, chase him back to the female. The female should be alone in the mating area and her last spawn should be a few days ago. The hungry male will have around 10 days to pick up weight (longer if you breed with 4 males), until she is able to spawn again. Keeping them as a pair, does not make sense to me, because why must she wait until he finished his job. My female dropped always the ball off eggs on the gravel, because he got his mouth full. I´m sure that´s the way how it works in the wild. As mentioned earlier in this thread, ORA does it similar. They also work with 3 or 4 male and 1 female. Steve and Rogan also figured it out, that pair breeding is not the right way to go.

    I did not have the time, the cash or the space to build this "***** house".
    Any suggestions for a better word? Sounds kinda rude.

    I am very confident, this size of "Banggai breeder" will work for captive bred broodstock, because they are use to humans, glass tanks and limited space.
    For wild caught broodstock, it might be better to make the "rooms" bigger, like 30 x 30 cm. I am not saying, this "Banggai breeder" is the perfect thing. It makes sense to try it and maybe to modify it after the results are present.

    Here he is, the "Banggai Breeder".


    [​IMG]

    The "rooms" are planned 4 times 20x20cm x 40cm high. (20x20x20cm is a mistake from the designer).:p

    That´s how it should work.
    As an example, 3 males or used (M1, M2 and M3), but only 1 female (F).
    Date in red is the spawning event and the date in green is the release of the fry.

    01.01.2011 F and M1 are together in the mating area. She spawned and he
    is carrying the eggs.
    10.01.2011 F and M2 are in the mating area. M1 is in his room.
    15.01.2011 F spawned and M2 is carrying the eggs.
    25.01.2011 F and M3 are in the mating area. M1 and M2 are both in their own room.
    29.01.2011 M1 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
    into a special tank (bucket). See Part IV still to come).
    30.01.2011F spawned and M3 is carrying the eggs.
    02.02.2011 F and M1 are in the mating area. M3 is in his room.
    13.02.2011 M2 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
    into a special tank.
    15.02.2011 F spawned and M1 is carrying the eggs. He had 2 weeks time to pick
    up weight!!!!
    27.02.2011 M3 is releasing the babies in his room. The babies should be transferred
    into a special tank.
    03.03.2011 F spawned and M2 is carrying the eggs. He had 2 weeks time to pick
    up weight!!!!

    and so on!

    Take note: We will have roughly every two weeks a spawn and every two weeks a
    release of the fry. Roughly we should get 50 to 60 babies per month
    from one female and 3 males.

    The big benefit is to keep the fry from the first release until and including the third, maybe the fourth release together in a special tank, fed on enriched brine shrimp from day 1. Don´t worry, they can eat the bigger brines.
    The latest addition of fry will learn from the older ones.

    So know I am very curious about your opinion, guys? Hope we get a nice discussion and brainstorming going to start with this or similar project to save this species.
    Let´s show the world, we South African´s (and the Germans:razz:) have the perfect recipe how to breed succesful Banggai cardinals in quantity.

    If we get that right, I will do the posting for our achievement on the important forums all over the world. I am already member of the most of them. The post would
    include all people who worked on this project. I am not going to post the result as my achievement. My idea is already posted on RC, but you know these Americans.
    We have to come up with facts!

    Does that sound good? It might be, that I´m a bit too passionate about breeding and I am not so sure if I can boost your passion for marines to be passionate for breeding Banggai´s.


     
    Last edited: 15 Feb 2010
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