Albino clownfish and the Law

[Falcon]

At this stage, I have to say a big thank you for your support, guys. There is some light at the end of the tunnel. I just spoke to the general director of DAFF. I asked him for a meeting to get the record straight. He will first listen to the investigators side and he will then meet me. I am sure together, we can solve this matter as I believe there is a big misunderstanding or false accusation on the go.

Will keep you guys informed. And still, I am going without a lawyer. Put a bit trust in me, I am much more clever than you guys think I am. I could have taken the governments lawyer free of charge, but in this case, I only trust myself.

Have faith in me!

Just be very nice and co operative with him and he wil probably drop the case,if you try arguing or making him or his investigators wrong he will act stubborn and insist on going to court...win him over with kindness and understanding and a willingness to get everything done the way they want it....as someone else pointed out fighting the law wont amount to much but getting them on your side will mean alot to you at this stage and also in the future.Oh and whatever you do please DONT GO EVEN MENTION THAT YOU THINK SOMEONE IS BEHIND THIS ETC that would make him think that you believe his department is potentially corrupt and then he would really nail you in court to prove that you are not legal in breeding the fish.Keep it clean no accusations etc just state your case.

Remember dont go charging down his throat about his investigators,thats not your business thats his.Just let him understand your situation and willingness to co operate 300% to their needs.

 

[dallasg]

i thought in SA law you need an advocate to address a judge or "his lordship"

and i know you want to speak your mind and say what you have to say but a friend on mine who is an adovcate for the police says, remember a judge can stop you from talking if its not pertinent to the case, what you think is and what he thinks is are very different, also their terminology
here are examples:

A fortiori: Latin term used to denote a reason, which is similar to the existing one, but more stronger in nature. This term is often used to explain a situation in which one fact is already proven and ascertained, then it can be inferred that the related second fact is more true. For example, it is already proved that 'A' can carry a weight of 120 kilograms. Then, a fortiori, 'A' can also carry this object, which is only 60 kilograms in weight'.

A Priori: Latin term, which means that 'from the cause to the effect'. It is based on the assumption that if the cause is a generally accepted truth, then a particular effect must follow. So, a priori judgment is considered to be true, but based on presumption and not on factual evidence.

Amicus Curiae: The literal meaning of this Latin term is 'friend of the court'. It can be a person who is not a party to the case, but is allowed by the court to provide information about the case.

Arrest: To detain a any person with lawful authority, especially those who are suspected to have committed a crime. The term is also used to denote a seizure of personal property by legal authority.

Burden of Proof: The responsibility of proving a fact regarding issues raised by disputing parties in a court case. Generally, the plaintiff has to prove that the allegations in the complaint are true. The defendant is given sufficient opportunity to rebut the same, but if the defendant raises some factual issue while defending the claims of the plaintiff, the former has the responsibility to prove the same.

 

[Trev]

i thought in SA law you need an advocate to address a judge or "his lordship"

and i know you want to speak your mind and say what you have to say but a friend on mine who is an adovcate for the police says, remember a judge can stop you from talking if its not pertinent to the case, what you think is and what he thinks is are very different, also their terminology
here are examples:

Those advocates dont come cheap hey even the half decent ones cost an arm and a leg, but boy are these guys clever and tactical its amazing. I was etreemly impressed with the guy who my attorney appointed to rep me, if you are able to afford a good advocate he or she will go to the extreem and even find points in the constitution to argue in order to convince a judge that your case is strong. Its worth a look

 

[HenkHugo]

Just remember guys the max rates etc are set by the Law Society

 

[davidfr7]

You can ask for legal aid the state will foot the bill. We live in SA the law protects the perps. If Marcel is not happy with the legal aid then He can get another.

 

[JD167]

Yissus and those advocates dont come cheap hey even the half decent ones cost an arm and a leg, but boy are these guys clever and tactical its amazing. I was etreemly impressed with the guy who my attorney appointed to rep me, if you are able to afford a good advocate he or she will go to the extreem and even find points in the constitution to argue in order to convince a judge that your case is strong. Its worth a look

[FONT=&quot]My other half is a advocate. They charge according to experience and expertise but are well worth it. They know the judges and magistrates. They know which judge/magistrate if going to be a problem for you. In some cases(I've seen it happen) advocates even know the law better than the judge and definitely better than a magistrate.

To avoid more problems I would suggest getting legal aid. Remember, this is the first time(I hope) you will be in court. Judges and magistrates sit there all day and listen to cases. They can make life very difficult for you if they think you are taking chances and think you know what you are talking about. They might even postpone the case and instruct you to get legal aid anyway.

If you want, pm me and I will ask the non-reefer is she can recommend a lawyer experienced in this type of thing. The lawyer will then approach an advocate to represent your case in court.

Given your long term plans and what you can gain/loose, I think paying for a good lawyer is well worth it.

Holding thumbs for you.
[/FONT]

 

[Ash]

I don't understand this...

First let me say that this is a commendable project and will be very lucrative in the future. I have no qualms with this type of artificial selective breeding so long as there is NO chance of accidental release! Which is just one reason why permits and laws are in place.

So to my understanding, Marcel has a facility (no matter how simple/complex) set up to selectively breed and grow-out the fish and he has a contract and LOI to sell commercially (local or internationally). He has been undertaking this task for commercial gain but has yet to sell any stock.

Should the land zoning, EIA and all permits not be granted, not simply applied for, before all this takes place?

Please correct me if I've got something wrong.

 

[Monti]

Land zoning? There is no land zoning designated commercial aquaculture (well at least at the schemes Ive looked at, and Ive looked at plenty). At most it would be simply commercial and the zoning certificate would not dictate what type of commercial it would be. An occupation certificate would stipulate conditions.

 

[Ash]

As far as I know its most agricultural land and IDZ by special request that can be used for aquaculture.

 

[Monti]

Hmmm, Ive never seen aquaculture by special consent in any of the schemes (but then, Ive never bothered to look for that)

And I agree with you ash about obtaining permits before everything happened- that is always how things should be done. It doesnt matter what a ballache obtaining the permits are, or how confusing the process is- permits are there for a reason.

 

[SIMS]

Agreed with you Ash - its simple. There is a law in place and no matter what, where or why it must be followed.

 

[Ash]

I think the process has been re-evaluated when DEAT and DWAF gor shuffled around. Aquaculture used to be split between the two but now falls under DAFF, I think.. It's all so confusing nowdays. There are also the provincial dept to consider. I do feel for Marcel because it really isn't easy getting clear answers on which permits are needed and which dept to go through.

 

[SchyffS]

Good luck Marcel

I hope that the various government departments can provide clear requirements for the granting of the required permitts and provide dedicated responsible persons to accept and review your applications. It doesnt help them if they dont have a process for this permit application and then still want to charge you with a 'crime' that you didnt commit.
I supppose it will help to educate them on the type of breeding your doing. If they dont understand the process of ornamental fish breeding then they cant evaluate the risk to their sytem and the environment.
It will help if the inspectors etc are less aggressive and a little more willing to logic and reason instead treating everyone as a common criminal.
Get an attorney if you can afford it because they(inspectors) will be quoting environmental laws applicable to the restrictions and you will need to quote laws applicable for waivering or compliance to the granting of permission to mariculture....

Is there a petition going around already to show our dissapointment and views of the situation that can be sent to the minister?

 

[LuckyFish]

I don't understand this...

First let me say that this is a commendable project and will be very lucrative in the future. I have no qualms with this type of artificial selective breeding so long as there is NO chance of accidental release! Which is just one reason why permits and laws are in place.

So to my understanding, Marcel has a facility (no matter how simple/complex) set up to selectively breed and grow-out the fish and he has a contract and LOI to sell commercially (local or internationally). He has been undertaking this task for commercial gain but has yet to sell any stock.

Should the land zoning, EIA and all permits not be granted, not simply applied for, before all this takes place?

Please correct me if I've got something wrong.

Yes, all this must be granted before the contract/LOI will come to an commercial paper. Without all this I am unable to deliver, which means export fish to Proaquatix.
If somebody could take me to court, then it is Proaquatix for not fullfilling the contract/LOI.

 

[Trev]

Yes, all this must be granted before the contract/LOI will come to an commercial paper. Without all this I am unable to deliver, which means export fish to Proaquatix.
If somebody could take me to court, then it is Proaquatix for not fullfilling the contract/LOI.

Marcel the way some poeple understand me included, is that breeding alone is an offence unless the permits have been obtained. This ofcourse is in a commercial context.

 

[LuckyFish]

Is there a petition going around already to show our dissapointment and views of the situation that can be sent to the minister?

Sounds like a good idea! How could this be implemented?

 

[LuckyFish]

Marcel the way some poeple understand me included, is that breeding alone is an offence unless the permits have been obtained. This ofcourse is in a commercial context.

The Marine Life Resource Act was written a long time ago to regulate fishing activities.
The word mariculture was later squeezed in, without any further regulation regarding marine ornamentals. It was asumed that mariculture is for foodfish only. Today it is not 100% clear to read, if or not marine ornamentals are included.

If I would breed allardis, I think I would might have a problem. But I am breeding ocellaris as a exoctic species and I dont have any local fish swimming here.

 

[Slummies]

allardis? why?

 

[Trev]

The Marine Life Resource Act was written a long time ago to regulate fishing activities.
The word mariculture was later squeezed in, without any further regulation regarding marine ornamentals. It was asumed that mariculture is for foodfish only. Today it is not 100% clear to read, if or not marine ornamentals are included.

If I would breed allardis, I think I would might have a problem. But I am breeding ocellaris as a exoctic species and I dont have any local fish swimming here.

Ok I understand your point, have you managed to arrange a meeting with the director of DAFF ( btw what th ehell does DAFF stand for ? )

 

[LuckyFish]

The meeting with the general director of DAFF is not going to happen as he is not allowed to talk to me, because it is already a court case.
I received a call tody from DAFF. They wangt to pitch up at 8am tomorrow morning again, with 5 inspectors and one scientist to determine the species I am breeding.
After this call, I found out that the meeting is not going to happen. So I sent DAFF an email to let them know, that the scientist is welcome to determine the species, but I will deny any inspector of the DAFF the access to my house and breeding room.
Last time they pitched up for a so called inspection and where did I end up?
Don't need this again. Let them get a warrant, my trust in this DAFF inspectors is restless gone.