Albino clownfish and the Law
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This is part of what DAFF wrote to me in September last year.
"The activity has become commercial in nature due to the commercial agreement that you have secured and the commercial marketing of the product."
I gave them the agreement to see the possibility of SA's first commercial marine ornamentalfish hatchery. And? Where is the help? They hold now the information I provided, against me.
Another thing you guys really should understand is, I am a foreigner. If I go to a bank for a loan, they say no because the credit act doesn't allow it. I don't have an overdraft. I did ask for one after 4 years of dealing with Standard bank, but they said they can't give foreigners an overdraft. I also asked to get a loan and for surety I put the papers down from my car. They said, it doesn't work that way.
How am I suppose to pay all the fees from my income? If I had the cash, I could have applied for this already, but nobody understands that and nobody comes up with a solution.
Now you could say, why don't you get a partner into the new business? I had a partner in Germany. No thanks you.
Also it is easy to get an investor for 10 million Rand onwards, but for lets say 100.000 Rand? No ways, I tried it already. My parents took a loan as pensioners and they send me 7000 Euro down. There is not that much left.
My previous bookkeeper didn't do a proper job, so my new bookkeeper has to do 2007, 2008 all over again and obviously charges me for that.
So if there is anybody willing to help with a personal loan, I will happily pay a good interest rate after I exported my first albinos.
"The activity has become commercial in nature due to the commercial agreement that you have secured and the commercial marketing of the product."
I gave them the agreement to see the possibility of SA's first commercial marine ornamentalfish hatchery. And? Where is the help? They hold now the information I provided, against me.
Another thing you guys really should understand is, I am a foreigner. If I go to a bank for a loan, they say no because the credit act doesn't allow it. I don't have an overdraft. I did ask for one after 4 years of dealing with Standard bank, but they said they can't give foreigners an overdraft. I also asked to get a loan and for surety I put the papers down from my car. They said, it doesn't work that way.
How am I suppose to pay all the fees from my income? If I had the cash, I could have applied for this already, but nobody understands that and nobody comes up with a solution.
Now you could say, why don't you get a partner into the new business? I had a partner in Germany. No thanks you.
Also it is easy to get an investor for 10 million Rand onwards, but for lets say 100.000 Rand? No ways, I tried it already. My parents took a loan as pensioners and they send me 7000 Euro down. There is not that much left.
My previous bookkeeper didn't do a proper job, so my new bookkeeper has to do 2007, 2008 all over again and obviously charges me for that.
So if there is anybody willing to help with a personal loan, I will happily pay a good interest rate after I exported my first albinos.
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If the charges are actually based on the fact that there is/was a contract and/or Letter of Intent, it doesn't explain the unnecessary killing of the clownfish.
I think they need the fish to make sure they know what species it is.
LuckyFish I understand your dificulty on the finance part but it will not be a good enough excuse to the judge as to why you have been doing what you have been doing without permits - if they are needed.
Being a German on a work permit is no excuse to break the law either.
As far as small investors I am almost sure if you look in the right place you will find someone. R100 000 is not a huge amount of money. I recon there a few people on the forum who would be interested to invest.
I thing slating the law, daff and anyone else on this thread is not going to help your case.
Just remember we as reefers and MASA members care about your issues and future but I can promise you one thing. The law care nothing for you or anyone no matter how much you kick and scream.
You just need to stick to the facts and stick to the law to get through this.
LuckyFish I understand your dificulty on the finance part but it will not be a good enough excuse to the judge as to why you have been doing what you have been doing without permits - if they are needed.
Being a German on a work permit is no excuse to break the law either.
As far as small investors I am almost sure if you look in the right place you will find someone. R100 000 is not a huge amount of money. I recon there a few people on the forum who would be interested to invest.
I thing slating the law, daff and anyone else on this thread is not going to help your case.
Just remember we as reefers and MASA members care about your issues and future but I can promise you one thing. The law care nothing for you or anyone no matter how much you kick and scream.
You just need to stick to the facts and stick to the law to get through this.
I fully agree with you, but I disagree that I have broken the law just because of a piece of paper.
BTW, now that this situation has gotten out of hand, I am getting informations that I should have gotten years ago. I didn't know that banks have got aquaculture specialits for financing such. Even though, I was at the different banks and asked for this kind of financing. They couldn't help me. If you don't ask for something specific, you will not get an answer.
As Matt stated, identification could have been determined without killing the fish. As long as the fish are not illegal species to keep captive in SA (and clearly they are not) it shouldn't matter what species they are if this is all about Marcel having a contract or LOI. There must be something else going on IMO.
Fully agreed, Brenda.
They gave the reason, whether u like it or not, whether it would happen in usa or uk, a transaction UNDER SA LAW was done and a law broken, that's it. That's the reason, so its not we are against like sims said its that, its not a hidden agenda its that is the law, we need to repect it, and if we don't like it go thru correct legitislative channels and petition
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I fully agree with you, but I disagree that I have broken the law just because of a piece of paper.
BTW, now that this situation has gotten out of hand, I am getting informations that I should have gotten years ago. I didn't know that banks have got aquaculture specialits for financing such. Even though, I was at the different banks and asked for this kind of financing. They couldn't help me. If you don't ask for something specific, you will not get an answer.
the law as far as I know states that having a signed contract is commercial so in their eye's its been broken.
Any decent accountant would have given you the correct advice on financing. Most people who setup businesses get a business plan and sit down with an accountant to go through the best methods to get it going. This is a vital step in any successful business IMO.
Monti- the facts as i know it is he went the legal route to apply for the permit he hasnt sold anything yet, he is waiting on the permit, they come cart him off to jail and confiscate some of his own prized fish , which they then kill and you dont think this is victimisation or unfair? We live in a "democracy" were people have rights over their own person and property - i dont see where he has broken the law as none of the fish have been commercially sold until he has received the permit.
Until the terms of the contract have been fulfilled it is only an understanding to do certain things the contract has not been fulfilled and it could not have been fulfilled if he didnt get the permit so his contract with proaquatix would have been null and void - He may get into trouble with proaquatix for not fulfilling his side but he has not taken any actions that have broken the law of South Africa imo but i have not seen the contracts etc so i am not really in position to make judgements here, i am only giving my opinion on the "facts" i have heard.
IMO he is a hobbyist who until he gets a permit can breed and keep marine fish for his own purpose as they are not indigenous and were brought into the country with proper permits in the first place by the original retailers
Until the terms of the contract have been fulfilled it is only an understanding to do certain things the contract has not been fulfilled and it could not have been fulfilled if he didnt get the permit so his contract with proaquatix would have been null and void - He may get into trouble with proaquatix for not fulfilling his side but he has not taken any actions that have broken the law of South Africa imo but i have not seen the contracts etc so i am not really in position to make judgements here, i am only giving my opinion on the "facts" i have heard.
IMO he is a hobbyist who until he gets a permit can breed and keep marine fish for his own purpose as they are not indigenous and were brought into the country with proper permits in the first place by the original retailers
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agreed Achillies but as with everything I am sure there is more to this story than we have been led to believe. I mean do you really think that these people would go to such efforts if they did not have some sort of case? Maybe I'm living in the twilight zone....
Fully agree with Achilles. This is why it's a case for 3rd Degree or Carte Blanche.
One thing I have to admit. One of the inspectors said, maybe this situation will push much faster to your target. At least she said it similar. And it seems, she is right. Now the informations I needed in the first place, are flowing now. Slowly but surely.
It is not that I hate these people, but there is too much emotions involved. Things get taken up the wrong way, hardly any time to understand the opposition better. They are actually doing what they get paid for. They also said, they could have confiscated the whole lifestock, but they didn't.
It is not that I hate these people, but there is too much emotions involved. Things get taken up the wrong way, hardly any time to understand the opposition better. They are actually doing what they get paid for. They also said, they could have confiscated the whole lifestock, but they didn't.
Yeah, and bear in mind, there is not only marcels side to this story.
And marcel, if you get a speeding ticket, do you also not consider it breaking the law as the ticket is a piece of paper. What is worrying is how many people really are selective in which laws to stick to, and which are stupid.. I think this has more to do with emotions than anything else (or I hope)
Achilles, see sims second to last post here regarding the legality. I think at the end of the day, the judge will be the one who determines how legal it is, not us!
And marcel, if you get a speeding ticket, do you also not consider it breaking the law as the ticket is a piece of paper. What is worrying is how many people really are selective in which laws to stick to, and which are stupid.. I think this has more to do with emotions than anything else (or I hope)
Achilles, see sims second to last post here regarding the legality. I think at the end of the day, the judge will be the one who determines how legal it is, not us!
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The judge is going to say:
Give that man a bells, I mean a permit.
Give that man a bells, I mean a permit.
Would be also an option.
I already have an appointment with a lawyer, who is specialised in the Marine Life Resource Act. Let's see what he says about this situation.
I was just reading the article about designer clownfish in the July/August 2010 Coral Mag again.
Would things like mutation through chemical manipulation or chromosome engineering have an impact on the judge's decision? You might need to proof that you have done selective breeding?
Designer clownfish are vital to new-species research and development.
Would things like mutation through chemical manipulation or chromosome engineering have an impact on the judge's decision? You might need to proof that you have done selective breeding?
Designer clownfish are vital to new-species research and development.
I wish you luck with this Marcel - I would love a pair of your clowns one day.
The laywer idea is better, they will assist you with this - You are not a criminal, and its not like you do not want the correct permits , its only that its not that easy getting them.
And maybe a relaxed and willing attitude in court could also help - If the judges see that you want to obtain the permits, and that you really would do whatever they require from you, he/she will not see you as involintary, or trying to fight them, but as someone that does respect the law. (If you were not , you would have sold them commercially already)
Good Luck !!
The laywer idea is better, they will assist you with this - You are not a criminal, and its not like you do not want the correct permits , its only that its not that easy getting them.
And maybe a relaxed and willing attitude in court could also help - If the judges see that you want to obtain the permits, and that you really would do whatever they require from you, he/she will not see you as involintary, or trying to fight them, but as someone that does respect the law. (If you were not , you would have sold them commercially already)
Good Luck !!
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