Article Vodka Dosing Warning

Whilst browsing through the local forums, I have come across regular references to the vodka method here and there. Just the latest example which has caused me to become very concerned and quite frankly, annoyed : Quote:
Ive done a 75l water change jsut now, what else is there i can do to get rid of these bubbles and to reduce nitrate? (Add vodka???)
(Not from masa, but irrelevant IMO)
The way in which vodka seems to be percieved as fix to nutrient issues, magic cure all or shortcut by newbies is alarming to say the least. If you are new to the hobby, and have heard about vodka,vinegar or sugar being used in tanks, take this post to heart.
There is no quick fix for algae, or nutrient issues. There is no subtitute for patience, hard work, dilligence, sound husbandry techniques and.............. research. And in your research you have come across dosing of vodka, sugar etc.... Thats where the problem lies! The dosing of any carbon source is a very controversial aspect of the hobby to say the least...... Do you really know what it does, how it does it and why it does it??? I am sure most of us can say yes to most of these questions if asked about our skimmers???? And how many to these w.r.t. vodka?

Don't get me wrong, dosing of a carbon source has its place in the hobby, there are some systems with great results which uses it as an integral part of their husbandry (think Prodibio, Zeovit, Fauna Marin). The difference between these systems and the newbies is years of testing, experience, R&D and ...............many dead corals..... There are many reefers using carbon dosing without the abovementioned systems (me included), but once again, patience, research, experience and then some more research is the key.
Furthermore:The scientific literature is out there, but trust me when I tell you, the jury is still out on this one...
Before you even start contemplating using vodka to get rid of nuisance algae/cyano bacteria, first understand what the algae is, why it is there, what you did to allow it to be there..... As you learn, you will learn how to effectively control, reduce and iliminate unwanted species from your tank.....You will learn about the tried, tested and trusted methologies employed by sucessfull reefers. Surely a better place to start........?

Guess what I am trying to say is that if you have algae or nutrient issues, you have husbandry issues! a problem which vodka is NOT going to solve! (I know there is a belief that the deeper you look into the bottle, the easier you forget your problems........and who enjoys hangovers?) Re evaluate your husbandry techniques, stocking levels, feeding regime, flow and filtration method. Do some water changes, blow clean some rock, do whatever it takes....

Like I said, there is a place for systems which employ a carbon source, but only start dabbling in the real dark side once you have a thorough understanding of nutrient fluxes, nutrient and bacterial fluxes, once you have come to grips with parameters, you have managed to maintain relatively low nutrient values, and most importantly, you have achieved STABILITY in you tank. Then and only then, use carbon dosing, trace element and amino acids to tweak colours for example.

 

[jacoc]

Does dosing vodka make your system more skimmer dependent? In my logic, it should seeing as how closely it resembles a bio pellet system, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Good question...i'm taging on this one..

BUT using pellets vs a scrubber or DSB makes your system much more dependent on the skimmer.

Hi piXius...have you considered to change your overflow where you have the bio balls in to a full on trickle filter and from there feed your sump...so as to have the back-up should the sump need maintenance..? It will be quite easy to do as you have a lot of space there for it...

 

[carlosdeandrade]

Bought NP pellets, decreasing Vodka slowly.
I have noticed 1: Diatoms appeared and 2: Skimmate increased.

 

[Seabass]

Pellet is a solid form of vodka dosing, does the same thing, also if using pellets don't use Prodibio Bioptim which also does the same as above 2 methods and you will end up cleaning your skimmer cup every hour for a day, trust me as I have tried it.

I also used herbanta for 10 days and no skimmer, have a dsb and my tank took a beating.

And I never maintained my scrubber for the nano, never seen anything positive come from it, should have just added a nano skimmer, would have been easier to maintain than a scrubber. Also the build is not that simple and cost me lots of $$$. Rather add an additional skimmer. But if you can build an easy to maintain scrubber that is easy to maintain I am sure it will work very well.

Which brings me to my Vodka question: Does dosing vodka make your system more skimmer dependent? In my logic, it should seeing as how closely it resembles a bio pellet system, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Back to vodka dosing, never tried it on my tanks so can't comment, I personally prefer red bull or monster with my vodka. Guys I know have used it to varying degrees of success, Each tank is different and I don't know exactly how they ran their tanks.

 

[ziyaadb]

Which brings me to my Vodka question: Does dosing vodka make your system more skimmer dependent? In my logic, it should seeing as how closely it resembles a bio pellet system, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Back to vodka dosing, never tried it on my tanks so can't comment, I personally prefer red bull or monster with my vodka. Guys I know have used it to varying degrees of success, Each tank is different and I don't know exactly how they ran their tanks.

If you dont have a PROPER skimmer and dose vodka you will run into MAJOR issues, Carbon dosing is highly dependent on a Potent skimmer, hence carbon dosing in nanos do not work. the skimmer skims out the excess bacteria that feeds on the phos and nitrate, also remember that Bio pellets came after vodka dosing and not the other way around

 

[ChrisNell]

Since i started dosing vodka 9 months ago (1ml per day on total 750l volume) and MB7/Special Blend skimmate has decreased dramatically.

 

[pXius]

Good question...i'm taging on this one..




Hi piXius...have you considered to change your overflow where you have the bio balls in to a full on trickle filter and from there feed your sump...so as to have the back-up should the sump need maintenance..? It will be quite easy to do as you have a lot of space there for it...

Actually change the whole filter layout. Nothing in the overflow at the moment. I'll do an update on my thread a bit later.

 

[irie ivan]

Does dosing vodka make your system more skimmer dependent? In my logic, it should seeing as how closely it resembles a bio pellet system, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Absolutely! What does the carbon do? It feeds bacteria. As they multiply, what happens to the old ones? They go for a swin in the water column. Unfortunately, they also die, and when they die, what happens to nutrients assimilated into their biomass? Furthermore, besides the skimmer removing them from the water, a skimmer plays a HUGE role in oxygenation of your tank!

We are not only talking anaerobic bacteria here remember, we are talking aerobic, i.e. oxygen consuming bacteria!!! For a system running a biopellet reactor or using carbon dosing, a skimmer is paramount, as water leaving reactor will have a lower dissolved oxygen content.

 

[Alan]

Its amazing how after so many years some threads are still so relevent, sign of a good original post i suppose.
IMO carbon dosing has a place in the hobby and that place is in a system that requires Low Nutriens as in the SPS systems that generally run big skimmers. In a mixed reef with softies and LPS, clams etc you do run the risk of starving some of your live stock.
The other problem i have is in the case of a power failure or the tank getting too warm you have far more bacteria than a system that runs naturally. In a situation where there is a shortage of oxygen like a power outage or very warm water, it is the bacteria that start dying first and this sets up a chain reaction in the system, so in these instances the affects would be far more severe and happen at a far faster rate.

 

[irie ivan]

So true uncle. I have been re-reading up on this again, the scientific community has done some work on how carbon density effects the bacterial population of the coral holobiont..... The data is out there, its just the deciphering it and relating it to our glass boxes!

Metagenomic analysis of the microbial comm... [Environ Microbiol. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

http://cmbc.ucsd.edu/content/1/docs/Thesis_complete.pdf

http://phage.sdsu.edu/research/pdf/Kuntz - Different sugars and corals.pdf

And of course the hobbyist literature:

Probiotics Demystified | Coral Magazine

Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I — Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

Feature Article: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part II — Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine
Have to agree, there is a place for it in our hobby. The important thing imo is for the hobbyist to know what he/she is dealing with.

If you know you are playing with fire, you stand less chance of being burnt, especially if you have the proverbial fire extinguisher at hand. Then again, if you know how to play with fire............. You would still have the fire extinguisher close by.......

 

[irie ivan]

From the second link I posted:


Dissolved organic carbon (DOC) (which is rarely measured on reefs) causes significant levels of mortality, while routinely monitored nutrients (such as phosphate, nitrate, and ammonia) do not. Bacterial growth rate studies reveal that DOC causes coral mortality by causing overgrowth of the coral microbiota.

In order to prevent further
coral reef loss, increasing DOC levels must be recognized as a threat, routinely​

monitored, and where appropriate actively reduced.

Actively Reduced........ Reduced.....

Now if I was to look at the TOC comparisons in the advanced aquarist magazine, they seem pretty much in line with natural levels..
I guess the big BUT here is that we need to consider the difference between holobiont bacterial colonies and probiotic innoculations of bacterial strains in systems.

 

[Tony]

Bought NP pellets, decreasing Vodka slowly.
I have noticed 1: Diatoms appeared and 2: Skimmate increased.

Diatoms have nothing to do with vodka dosing. They depend on silicates to form their skeletons. Check other sources for silicates like old GFO that's leaching back phosphate and silicate (they adsorb both) or source water. Maybe your RO membrane, pre filters or deionising resing needs replacing. Your skimmate may be increasing due to the die off of excess bacteria that was in your system. The bio pellets take about 4-6 weeks to mature and you must'nt stop your vodka dosing too quickly. I would personally maintain your current regime for about 4 weeks then start tapering the dosage off for another two weeks

Since i started dosing vodka 9 months ago (1ml per day on total 750l volume) and MB7/Special Blend skimmate has decreased dramatically.

Vodka an bacteria dosing should make you skimmate increase although I personally think you're dosing way too little vodka if you want a ULNS system. You skimmate could be reducing as a result of a low bioload in the tank and the constant addition of bacteria. The special blend is a good bacteria source

 

[Tony]

Its amazing how after so many years some threads are still so relevent, sign of a good original post i suppose.
IMO carbon dosing has a place in the hobby and that place is in a system that requires Low Nutriens as in the SPS systems that generally run big skimmers. In a mixed reef with softies and LPS, clams etc you do run the risk of starving some of your live stock.
The other problem i have is in the case of a power failure or the tank getting too warm you have far more bacteria than a system that runs naturally. In a situation where there is a shortage of oxygen like a power outage or very warm water, it is the bacteria that start dying first and this sets up a chain reaction in the system, so in these instances the affects would be far more severe and happen at a far faster rate.

Good point with the starvation of corals and clams due to a lack of food, and it's also the upside of low nutrient systems which allows you to feed a lot more which creates more fish poop which creates more coral food.

 

[irie ivan]

Interesting too is how feeding increases the TOC in the water a few hours after feeding. NOT from the food, but rather from increased mucosal activity by corals.....

Put Zeo reactor on top of corals???

 

[williet]

Ok Guys

I have read this thread and I understand the pros and cons of Carbon dosing.
This is what I currently have

Tank = 10 months old after cycle
2m tank volume +- 650L
Sump System +- 450 - two parts one with LR and another with a smallish DSB with Cheato
Waterchanges are 15% every second week. Going to step it up to every 3 days for the next 10 days as I am diluting nitrates.

Bioload - 16 fish mostly small

Filtration

Tunze 9240 DOC skimmer + a Tunze 9011 DOC skimmer total capacity = 3000Lph
Tunze Mechanical Filtration (Floss and carbon)

Dosing - Automated

Kalkwasser with a stirrer
Biopellets 500g - question comming with this
MAgnesium
Potasium
Strontium


Test kits Salifert

Po4 = 0
No3 = +10-15
Mg = 1300
KH = 9.9
CA = 450
SG = 1.025-26
PH = 8.2

Parameters very stable and never fluctuates
I am wanting to go the low nutrient route. I am going SPS only with a Clam.


Now my question

I started with Bio-Pellets(Should have read more). First opinion I know I am halfway there but after reading a LOT more I found the total cost of ownership is far more than going with dosing something like Bio Fuel. So I want to turn around going towards Biofuel away from Biopellets. My Nitrates are not where I want them and I know dilution is the solution. But I know if I want to bring them nitrates right down to almost non traceable, I will have to go the carbon route.

Any comments ?

 

[459b]

When did you start the Biopellets, they do take a while to kick in.

 

[Nemos Janitor]

A nitrate filter is the easiest way. You have controll over the nitrate level you want to run your tank at.

 

[dallasg]

once again so many ways to skin the reef cat...
amazing how complex life is and how many things happen naturally, concurrently or not at all...
trying to mimic the ocean is on par with Quantum Mechanics and we know more about QM than the oceans

 

[williet]

@459b
I have been running Biopellets for two months. I think my ration of pellets are too low. 100 g per 100l works out quite expensive considering it is R300 for 250g. Biofuel - far more cost effective !

@Nemos Janitor - I will try the nitrate filter !
@dallas - true that be matey !

 

[RiaanP]

A nitrate filter is the easiest way. You have controll over the nitrate level you want to run your tank at.

@Nemos Janitor , on your one tank you run a nitrate reactor using a cannister filter.
Do you have the design somewhere. Or description. I know you described it to me, but I cannot remember the detail. Blame the beer.

 

[Nemos Janitor]

@Nemos Janitor , one your one tank you run a nitrate reactor using a cannister filter.
Do you have the design somewhere. Or description. I know you described it to me, but I cannot remember the detail. Blame the beer.

It is in one of the nitrate filter threads. I will try and find it.