Garlic the truth

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Ok I read that link. Its neither here nor there, some guys thought it might have worked, others not.

If you want us to be avid garlic avoiders you got to fid something more damning. And it also must hold up to proper scrutiny.:razz:
 
oops, a little slow. Yup shouldn't advertise my laziness.

Read the other link, 1 person referred to Bell and McVicar 1992 (trying to google it), but otherwise everyone claims it either worked for them or didn't. Never heard of anyone losing fish after treating with garlic.
 
And when everyone is a draad sitter you go back to your own conclusions, best way to make up your mind ;)
 
I will try to find the article that showed liver damage proof - it may take a while though - don't lose that thought, but talk amongst yourselves for a while......
 
And when everyone is a draad sitter you go back to your own conclusions, best way to make up your mind ;)

Not sure, i find scientific proof better really, but as above hang on, i'll find it for you.
 
Here we go;- All info from Ultimate reef's very own fish health expert - Wombat.

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Orono, Maine, USA
Posts: 6,258


OK I'm a no garlic for marine fish person.

Why?

Well firstly let me give you a little background on where I’m coming from, I’m a fish disease research scientist and I specialize in fish vaccination and ectoparasite infections in fish. I donl;t work for sell or am I in anyway assciated with commerical fish foods retail. My research laboratory has carried out many trials for fish feed manufactures on garlic, both as an appetite stimulator, immunostimulant and white spot “cure” and I shall link to some of this work publishes on UR and in the scientific literature.

So why not use garlic in marine fish diets.

1 Long term heart and liver lesions

Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is due the nature of the lipid the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.

AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993[/font]
Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar).
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73

AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.1991.
High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion.
J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72

J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences

J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus)
Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277

SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.

These scientific journals detail the pathology and chronic changes die to these lipids (there are many more) but there aren’t any on seahorse, mainly as they are not a major farmed species or laboratory model, however if you apply the precautionary principal to your fish (in the same way it is applied to Humans) then you wouldn’t feed your marine fish diets containing terrestrial lipids. This has a human health comparison with Trans fats, very useful in making vegetable oils butter like so common in vegetable spreads and thought to be harmless until it turns out they cause liver tumors in rats and mice and probably in humans too. So if this evidence is good enough to ban trans fats in foods then the much stronger data in fish should be good enough to ensure you don’t feed terrestrial oils to reef fish. As I said earlier my lab (which is a fish health lab at a leading University) is often asked to carry out fed trials for feed manufactures and we have carried out many that use garlic or garlic extracts. Unfortunately these are considered to be commercially sensitive and I can tell you the results of using them to control white spot (but suffice to say the companies we have carried out scientific trials have all decided not to launched garlic supplemented feeds). However I did persuade one feed manufacturer to allow me to post the growth data from their feed trial on UR. The results were, well, damning for garlic. Here is the link to the trial from my lab in this thread
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=230961

Why do manufactures put it in their food, well clearly there is a demand for it and they are supplying that market demanded. It doesn’t mean it good for your fish it just means that they will sell more of their food if people are misinformed and think it is beneficial

Garlic’s Anti-parasitic Properties
The first question I have is please show me a research paper with proper controls where garlic has b been shown to cure parasitic diseases in fish. I’ve just visited web of Science (a major research database) and there are no research papers that do this.
Much of the anti parasitic effects of garlic are attributed to Allacin and most work is done in humans where it may have some benefits if purified allacin is fed, around 400mg kg/bw every day. However in many mammals, (dogs, cats, horses etc) garlic causes a Heinz body anemia which is potentially fatal.

My laboratory has recently carried out a trial using purified allacin in clown fish
I recently picked up a MAEFS grant to look at this and the preliminary results are as follows The experiment was as follows

90 clown fish 40 on allicin, 40 not, 10 time zero samples. 10 sampled per week per group. The dose of allacin is 400ug/kg bw (a level used in humans and about 400ng/fish)

week 0 mean both groups 41.7% Hcrt
week 1 test 34.7% Hcrt control 42.4% Hcrt
week 2 test 18.8% Hcrt Controls 41.% Hcrt
week 2 test 17.2% Hcrt Controls 42.8% Hcrt
week 2 test 17.0% Hcrt Controls 40.6% Hcrt

Hcrt= haematocrit (how many red cells there are in the blood). The histology results on the organs hasn't been processed yet

Clearly allacin causes acute Heinz body anemia in reef fish too

To assume that all fish can eat garlic with no ill effects seems optimistic, when in mammals (which as a group are far more closely related to each other that fish are) it is fine for some e.g. the great apes, but toxic for dogs and cats (see
O. Yamato, E. Kasai, T. Katsura, S. Takahashi, T. Shiota, M. Tajima, M. Yamasaki, and Y. Maede[/font]
Heinz Body Hemolytic Anemia With Eccentrocytosis From Ingestion of Chinese Chive (Allium tuberosum) and Garlic (Allium sativum) in a Dog
J. Am. Anim. Hosp. Assoc., January 1, 2005; 41(1): 68 - 73. (which is just one of 100's of research articles on this in the field))
Each year veterinarians have to treat 100's of cats and dogs for acute anaemia in the UK due to their owners feeding garlic to them. Simply because they read on the the web it does wonders for their immune system, anti worms etc. Yet these potentially fatal supplements are still widely available in the US/UK

http://www.pet-points.com/product_in...roducts_id=557
http://www.mysimon.com/9015-10992_8-29572306.html


3 Well Garlic must be an immunostimulant

In the most recent review if immunostimulants in marine fish

Ian Bricknell& Roy A. Dalmo 2005
The use of immunostimulants in fish larval aquaculture
Fish & Shellfish Immunology 19 (5) 457-472

Garlic is not referred to as an immunostimulant.

To be honest garlic has been discussed many time on UR, if you want to feed your fish garlic then nothing is stopping you, but I doubt you will see a benefit and the evidence strongly suggests you will do short and long term harm to them.
__________________
 
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Thanks Mike, interesting read. Will avoid it but still think it helped with my naso's worms.
 
what do you think?????????????????????????????????????

It's a GIMMICK that helps to sell fish food - it's logical: garlic does not grow in the sea, therefore it's not a natural marine fish food... so why feed it to your fish.

Good article you quoted there, Mike.

Hennie
 
It's a GIMMICK that helps to sell fish food - it's logical: garlic does not grow in the sea, therefore it's not a natural marine fish food... so why feed it to your fish.

Good article you quoted there, Mike.

Hennie

Thanks Hennie, nice to have your nod of approval:)
 
This is the email i got back from pablo

Dean, Of course you should make the ultimate decision as to what make sense. All I can say is “The proof of the pudding is in the eating” I have kept my marine fish for over 12 years using nothing but Thera +A exclusively for over 12 years without any issue, some fish grew from 2 inches to 18 inches... Look luck on your endeavor.

Pablo
Also new life spectrum has invited any body to place there questions to them on there own forum www.nlpublish.com
 
some fish grew from 2 inches to 18 inches

These are obviously FRESH water fish...

There is the possibility that garlic could have short-term therapeutic value in fighting certain fish diseases (although I personally doubt this...), but would you drink antibiotics for the rest of your life just for it's "preventative" therapeutic value, or receive chemo therapy for the rest of your life to try and prevent the common cold?

I don't think that garlic, as added to our fish food, is really short-term toxic in the quantities added - I have been using Omega 1's small pellets with garlic as one of my foods for more than a year without any signs of toxicity(I like it because of the small size of the pellets, and the quality of the other ingredients...), BUT I contend that garlic should not be fed, just because it is unnatural for our marine fish.

Garlic, like aragonite and actinics, have been hijacked by the sales/advertising people in the aquarium hobby industry (who most likely have NO IDEA of what it actually is/does), just because of it's money-making potential...

Hennie
 
Garlic, like aragonite and actinics, have been hijacked by the sales/advertising people in the aquarium hobby industry (who most likely have NO IDEA of what it actually is/does), just because of it's money-making potential...

Hennie

Spot on Hennie
 
G'day gents, please allow me to introduce myself, and add my Canadian 2 cents worth to this discussion.


First off I will preface my following comments by stating up front that while I do have a vested interest in the fish food industry, I have a much larger vested interest in keeping my fish healthy. I'm not here to hard sell anything, to anyone, only to clear up what I see as a great deal of misinformation on the subject of garlic, and fish feed.


Some pretty strong stuff here - garlic kills fish - It's a GIMMICK that helps to sell fish food - hijacked by the sales/advertising people in the aquarium hobby industry (who most likely have NO IDEA of what it actually is/does), just because of it's money-making potential...

I would like to start by addressing the comment below;

These are obviously FRESH water fish...

Actually no, these would be marine fish, some of them considered to be ultra sensitive, and "doomed in captivity" by many hobbyists. Fish such as Moorish Idol, Rock Beauty, Majestic Angels, Achilles Tang, etc.
Pablo Tepoot has been keeping marine fish most of his life, and at near 70 yrs of age, with approx 5,000 gallons worth of SW running in the tanks at his home, and having authored a book on marine fish, I think that it's safe to say that he knows a thing or two about keeping marine fish thriving in captivity. And yes, he also keeps a few freshwater fish. His farm consists of ...... 120 ponds (approximately 30,000 gal. each), 1500 concrete vats (250gal.-500gal. each) and 1,000 40 gal. fry tanks.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find another fish food manufacturer that has the personal "hands on" experience as Pablo Tepoot, be it with marine, or freshwater fish.


The internet is a wonderful thing, I'm young enough to take it for granted, and old enough to know that the info one finds is only as good as the source that supplies it.

With all due respect to Wombat, allow me to counter his/her various comments that were posted above.

Most terrestrial plants have a completely different lipid profile for what is required by marine fishes causing heart and liver lesions


While this is very true, I think that a very important part of this equation has been left out, that being the inclusion rate of lipids via the addition of adding garlic to most commercial feeds (@ 1-5%) wouldn't even register on the overall lipid percentage of the food.

I don't know of any manufacturers adding massive amounts of garlic to their commercial feed, so please let's not judge all products that may contain garlic, as a single entity. With regards to commercial foods, the "lipid" content derived from the garlic used in most formulas (garlic powder), would be almost nonexistent. Something along the lines of 0.0001%

To think that this will somehow have negative effects on the health of a fish, be it short term, or long term, due to the lipid content, is quite frankly, ridiculous.

Using this same type of logic one could make the same accusations about Vitamin A, due to the fact that at high enough levels it too can become toxic to fish. No nutritionist would recommend completely eliminating vitamin A, B, D, E and K from the diet based only on the fact that at inappropriate levels it can be harmful and evenly deadly to a fish.


Please keep in mind that almost everything and anything can become toxic at high enough levels.

Trust me, no manufacturer of dry fish foods is adding 400ug/kg of purified allacin to their feed, such as in your feed trials. And even if at some point one manufacturer does, that doesn't mean that everyone should suddenly throw out ALL the babies with the bath water!

Run several controlled feed trials using lipids from marine sources, such as what some of these fish would experience in the wild, yet in excessive amounts, and I can assure that those results will be quite damning as well. Does excessive fat deposition in the viscera & tissues leading to progressive degeneration of liver cells, sound about right?

It all boils down to proper balance, and moderation. Remove one strand from a woven basket, and the whole basket can unravel.


The reports that were posted above by Wombat have to do with fish raised for human consumption, and the terrestrial lipid content is obviously very high in those studies as the commercial fish farms are constantly in search of reducing feed costs via the removal of fish protein & fish lipids, and replacing them with grain & grain by-products. This is precisely why these tests took place. They are looking for less costly alternatives! Also, most commercial salmon operations tend to use fairly high lipid content in their feed to ensure that the more costly protein (fish meal) is spared for growth, and not utilized as an energy source.

The studies that were posted above have simply shown what can happen IF one feeds excessive amounts of these lipids to those species of fish. But again, these studies have nothing to do with garlic inclusion rates in food, and the resulting lipids that would be present from that particular food stuff (garlic powder) in a commercial food.


This type of "commercial farm" research has been taking place for decades, due to the largest expense of most commercial operations being the cost of the feed. If one can reduce the overall feed costs, or lower the feed conversion ratio, on larger farms those savings can equal hundreds of thousands of dollars. (in a single year!)
So the farms keep running tests & studying the results in the hopes that one day they can replace the majority of the more costly marine proteins (fish meal & fish oil) with less costly grain & grain by-products.



And no offence to Steven Pro, but in my humble opinion the author has used a rather broad brush when referring to commercial manufacturers. Also, some of the info in that article is now somewhat outdated. Steven Pro's article was based on nothng more than one persons personal opinion, on a subject that he is most certainly not qualified to speak on as any type of expert.

Over the past decade there has been a number of studies involving garlic and fish food and the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex (the active ingredient in garlic) to rid them of parasites appeared to be quite strong. The following is a link to a more recent study that confirms what some people have been saying all along. http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v12n2/v12n2a03.pdf

A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus).

J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196

Fish Hatchery and Reproductive Physiology Department, Central Laboratory for Aquaculture Research, Abbassa, Abo-Hammad, Sharkia, Egypt


In this particular study the inclusion of garlic powder at a rate of 3% has shown to increase the overall digestibility of protein, carbohydrates, and fat, as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, as well as the tank water itself.


And another recent study ...............

Effect of Allium sativum on the immunity and survival of Labeo rohita infected with Aeromonas hydrophila


S. Sahu, B. K. Das, B. K. Mishra, J. Pradhan and N. Sarangi

Aquatic Animal Health Division, Central Institute of Freshwater Aquaculture, Kausalyaganga, Bhubaneswar, India

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies


Summary


The aim of this study was to evaluate dietary dosages of garlic on the immune response and disease resistance against infections due to the opportunistic pathogen Aeromonas hydrophila in Labeo rohita fingerlings. Garlic, Allium sativum, was incorporated into the diets (0%, 0.1%, 0.5% and 1.0%) of rohu, L. rohita fingerlings (10 ± 2 g). Every 20 days, different biochemical (serum total protein, albumin, globulin, albumin : globulin ratio, blood glucose), haematological (WBC, RBC and haemoglobin content) and immunological (superoxide anion production, lysozyme activity and serum bactericidal activity) parameters were evaluated. Superoxide anion production, lysozyme, serum bactericidal, serum protein and albumin were enhanced in garlic treated groups compared with the control group. After 60 days, fish were challenged with A. hydrophila and mortality (%) was recorded up to day 10 post-challenge. Survival decreased in control group (57%) up to day 10 after infection. However, this was increased in the garlic treatment group, i.e. 85% survivability in the 1 g garlic kg−1 (B group) and 5 g garlic kg−1 (C group), and 71% survivability in the 10 g garlic kg−1 (D group), respectively. These results indicate that Allium sativum stimulates the immunity and makes L. rohita more resistant to infection by A. hydrophila.



FYI - I have personally seen numerous marine fish (including some very delicate species) that have consumed garlic via commercial food for 10+ yrs, with no ill effects. Quite the opposite actually, a decade later & these same fish were still thriving in captivity.

So I wouldn't be so quick to judge with regards to garlic not being an immunostimulant in fish. What Pablo Tepoot has been stating about garlic for the past 15+ yrs, science is just recently catching up with.

Some of the most prestigious public marine systems in North America feed commercial food that contains garlic. Joe Yaiullo, one of the pioneers of reef keeping in the USA, and the curator/co-founder of Atlantis Marine World in NY has been feeding such a dry food for several years. You can view his 20,000 gallon reef set up (the largest reef tank in North America, and 4th largest in the world) in the link below, where he also mentions the various feed that he uses.

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Featured Aquarium: Atlantis Marine World
Joe Yaiullo is one of the world’s most highly regarded Aquarium authorities. He has consulted with many public Aquariums worldwide, and has also presented reef-keeping lectures throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe.

Bob Fenner, who is widely known through his various published works on marine aquatics, as well as his wetwebmedia website, has openly stated that a commercial brand of feed (that contains garlic) is not only a nutritionally complete food, in his opinion it is the best food, period. Even though he has no financial interest whatsoever in this product, or the parent company. Go figure.

Recently Charles Delbeek M.Sc., senior biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco has also begun feeding a commercial food (that contains garlic) at their facility, and these are just a few examples of some of the more advanced marine keepers in the USA that apparently are having very positive results with these commercial formulas.

To quote a long term mentor of mine - "an expert is someone who knows so much, they have no room left in their head to learn anything new".


cheers
 
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G'day gents, please allow me to introduce myself, and add my Canadian 2 cents worth to this discussion.

A warm welcome to MASA, always nice to have varying opinions here:thumbup:

Bob Fenner, who is widely known through his various published works on marine aquatics, as well as his wetwebmedia website, has openly stated that a commercial brand of feed (that contains garlic) is not only a nutritionally complete food, in his opinion it is the best food, period. Even though he has no financial interest whatsoever in this product, or the parent company. Go figure.
Which food if I may ask, We always wanna feed the best?
 
Thanks for the warm welcome!

If at all possible I would prefer to leave brand names out of the discussion. As stated previously I do have a vested interest in the fish food industry (I'm a wholesale distributor), and I don't want my comments to come across as being self promotional. If you follow the bread crumbs it shouldn't be that difficult to figure out.

The point is, I would defend any fish food companies product against false, inaccurate, or misleading comments. At the same time I will be the first one to stand & shout BS if/when I see it, which believe me, has landed me in my fair share of hot water over the years, including threats of lawsuits by those would prefer that I minded my own business. And yes, unfortunately there are a lot of gimmicks & marketing BS in the aquatics industry, so I understand why many people are skeptical when a manufacturer or their PR people attempt to hard sell certain things.

Having said all that, at the end of the day I'm just like everyone else here, a hobbyist who has a great passion for this hobby.
 
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