That special stainless steel welding rod. I think it's called 316.
You guys are really making me sick!
- Thread starter LuckyFish
- Start date
That special stainless steel welding rod. I think it's called 316.
I would get your earth leakage checked.
Marcel do you know if you have an earth leakage switch in your house?
Someone may have changed it for a normal overcurrent breaker.
Marcel do you know if you have an earth leakage switch in your house?
Someone may have changed it for a normal overcurrent breaker.
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Yes I do. I'm renting the place, so I'm not sure how good it works. It tripped many times already for various reasons. That's why I think it's working. Maybe not to the exact 20mA.
Something else to check is if the pins on the sockets are actually connected to earth and if the connections are secure and not corroded. Both at the plug sockets and DB boards.
Also when it did trip. Was it because of earth leakage or drawing to much current?
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Interesting discussion guys and here are my thoughts.
I would recommend grounding your tank, this is why they invented earth leakage, and it save lives!
YES, Marcel is correct in saying its causes electrolysis, however is the example in earlier posts a true reflection of what happens in your tank? I don't believe so. NO offense Marcel!
The reason I say this is as follows:
For there to be electrolysis there has to be current flow, now if you have enough current flow to cause electrolysis there's a problem, and electrolysis is the least of of your problems IMO! By removing the earthing / grounding probe you could compare it to leaving some wires exposed without insulating them, I don't know about you but I don't like playing Russian roulette? Is it safe?
One could test the current flow by putting their DVM (digital multimeter) on to mA and check the flow by placing the meter between the probe and earth terminal (same way as described to test voltage), anything more than 20mA should be tripping the Earth Leakage switch (for E.L. switches rate at 20mA).
To try limit the little "current flow" from your fish if you are concerned about it, would be to place a probe or probes as close to the pumps as possible, this should reduce the flow "across" the tank, however I cannot confirm this 100%, but from my knowledge I'm sure it would work.
Now for all of those who say that Stray voltage is unavoidable, I ask, why does my tank not even measure 1 Volt and less than 1mA, without an earthing probe? this would equate to less than 0.01 watt of power towards the electrolysis.
Bottom line, if you have stray voltage, find the source and bin it!
I would recommend grounding your tank, this is why they invented earth leakage, and it save lives!
YES, Marcel is correct in saying its causes electrolysis, however is the example in earlier posts a true reflection of what happens in your tank? I don't believe so. NO offense Marcel!
The reason I say this is as follows:
For there to be electrolysis there has to be current flow, now if you have enough current flow to cause electrolysis there's a problem, and electrolysis is the least of of your problems IMO! By removing the earthing / grounding probe you could compare it to leaving some wires exposed without insulating them, I don't know about you but I don't like playing Russian roulette? Is it safe?
One could test the current flow by putting their DVM (digital multimeter) on to mA and check the flow by placing the meter between the probe and earth terminal (same way as described to test voltage), anything more than 20mA should be tripping the Earth Leakage switch (for E.L. switches rate at 20mA).
To try limit the little "current flow" from your fish if you are concerned about it, would be to place a probe or probes as close to the pumps as possible, this should reduce the flow "across" the tank, however I cannot confirm this 100%, but from my knowledge I'm sure it would work.
Now for all of those who say that Stray voltage is unavoidable, I ask, why does my tank not even measure 1 Volt and less than 1mA, without an earthing probe? this would equate to less than 0.01 watt of power towards the electrolysis.
Bottom line, if you have stray voltage, find the source and bin it!
Please see my post above, I had posting problems.
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Did it have a earth cable connected, if it did, I doubt it went anywhere useful inside a plastic housing.
AGREED, I would get it checked out ASAP, most earth leakage trip switched have a test button, maybe try it to check?
It just dawned on me. Someone asked why pumps and heaters did not have a earth. Because there is nowhere for the earth to be connected to the the tank.
I find your opinion to this topic a bit disappointing as you are the expert in electricity. There might be maybe some problem with the earth leakage here in the house, but who can be sure that everything is working according to the law?
What are you going to suggest to reefers, which have maybe 50 Volt stray voltage?
That amount adds very quick. A return pump, heater, skimmer pump, etc.
Buy everything new? Used equipment should be then certified as stray voltage free!
We don't really know what is going on in case of stray voltage. To many things are playing together, which we can not determine.
I had a cube running with 70 Volts stray voltage. I grounded the tank and that was it. Nothing negative visible. No dropping PH, corals and fish were fine. Here I have only 20 Volts and when grounded the PH drops by 0.1. The fish stops eating, turns shy, swims strange, turns blind and finally dies.
I think we all should put our heads together and find a solution that is safe for us and the inhabitants.
Can somebody make a poll about how many stray voltage others have and if they grounded the tank or not?
I wrote this thread to make people aware of the unknown. Sure the experiment showed the worse case scenario, but here and there live stock dies without knowing why, people get shocked, sadly enough recently shocked to death.
So it should be in anybodies interest to point out, that such things can happen.
It would be good that every reefer checks their stray voltage. Reefers who have stray voltage should point out what appliance creates how much and what brand/range it is.
I can build a system with absolute zero stray voltage. Easy, just needs a bit more cash than the majority really has. Used electrical equipment shouldn't be sold any more. It should be dumped, just in case. The majority of us is using rather cheaper electrical appliances. Otherwise the chinese stuff would disappear from the market very quick.
There is a way of grounding a tank, when working in water and disconnecting the ground probe when finished. If a positive and a negative leaks into the water (which can be from two different appliances), electrolysis will take place without having the system grounded.
Is there a way that every reefer can test that their earth leakage switch in their mainboard really works and their wall socket used for the tank is 100 % in working order when it comes to to more than 20 mA?
20 mA is nothing and extremely safe IMO! So having that, I shouldn't have lost anything as it should have tripped long ago before producing bleach and acid!
Or am I wrong here?
So it should be in anybodies interest to point out, that such things can happen.
It would be good that every reefer checks their stray voltage. Reefers who have stray voltage should point out what appliance creates how much and what brand/range it is.
I can build a system with absolute zero stray voltage. Easy, just needs a bit more cash than the majority really has. Used electrical equipment shouldn't be sold any more. It should be dumped, just in case. The majority of us is using rather cheaper electrical appliances. Otherwise the chinese stuff would disappear from the market very quick.
There is a way of grounding a tank, when working in water and disconnecting the ground probe when finished. If a positive and a negative leaks into the water (which can be from two different appliances), electrolysis will take place without having the system grounded.
Is there a way that every reefer can test that their earth leakage switch in their mainboard really works and their wall socket used for the tank is 100 % in working order when it comes to to more than 20 mA?
20 mA is nothing and extremely safe IMO! So having that, I shouldn't have lost anything as it should have tripped long ago before producing bleach and acid!
Or am I wrong here?
Firstly, lets get facts right, I'm NO expert, and nor does my badge or anything else say that I am, I'm not a qualified electrician, as I have stated in the past! I just have a vast knowledge of electronics and electrical, and like to help and advise where I can.
I'm not sure why you say your disappointed with my reply? I gave you my opinion that it is safer to have an earth rod, than removing it as one is worried about secondary "problems" it could causes since the "primary" problem has been neglected.
As stated by NJ and myself, get the E.L. tested, Marcel its not worth taking any chances.
I would and have said to anyone having a problem is to isolate to device causing the problem and replace it, there is nothing else one can do to repair it! unless you want to play with your life, I sure know I don't.
Stray voltage is not related to how many pumps you have, its related to how many faulty pumps you have!
Agreed, there are many factors involved, and we can get extremely technical on this topic, however, it won't discredit the fact that a tank is safer with a ground probe.
I under stand your frustration WRT the other tank having problems with grounding, however there must be something wrong with one of the pumps or something.
Try unplug ALL the attached devices, place the DVM between the probe and earth set to mA, and plug one item in at a time, you should soon find the item/s causing the problem.
Just because the pump runs it doesn't mean it safe, so yes, buying used equipment has its risks. If I find a pump or device with a problem, I cut the cord right where it enters the pump, this way no one can use it again.
As for trying to find a solution to this problem, I'm busy brain storming a couple ideas, but I will take a bit of time, and test accurately could be a bit tricky
I'm really not here to fight or argue, I just don't want to loose another MASA family member.
Marcel Just sit back and think a little more my friend.
I/we are not disputing the fact that electrolysis has taken place in your system. Nor that you have stray electrical currents therein causing it. I am are questioning the ability of AC electrolysis to produce H2 and O2 and chlorine gas at less than 20mA. Any more than 20mA and your 20mA earth leakage will trip if it is working correctly.
So what needs to be proved is that chlorine gas is produced in sea water, NSW or synthetic, at lethal volumes at currents less than 20mA AC current, voltage dependant. If so then your concerns are valid. If not then there is obviously nothing to worry about having a grounding probe with a good working earth leakage. Now for your theory/analogy lets look at experiments in this area.
Bud we are discussing here and need to treat the cause, not overcome a symptom/result. This is a great discussion and will benefit all.
I/we are not disputing the fact that electrolysis has taken place in your system. Nor that you have stray electrical currents therein causing it. I am are questioning the ability of AC electrolysis to produce H2 and O2 and chlorine gas at less than 20mA. Any more than 20mA and your 20mA earth leakage will trip if it is working correctly.
So what needs to be proved is that chlorine gas is produced in sea water, NSW or synthetic, at lethal volumes at currents less than 20mA AC current, voltage dependant. If so then your concerns are valid. If not then there is obviously nothing to worry about having a grounding probe with a good working earth leakage. Now for your theory/analogy lets look at experiments in this area.
Bud we are discussing here and need to treat the cause, not overcome a symptom/result. This is a great discussion and will benefit all.
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I'm not sure why you say your disappointed with my reply? I gave you my opinion that it is safer to have an earth rod, than removing it as one is worried about secondary "problems" it could causes since the "primary" problem has been neglected.
Because I gave lots of food for thought. I brought up a solution. Not saying it's the perfect solution, but something to start working on.
And your "badge" made me disappointed!maybe I should use more smileys in my post. I like to provoke a bit to get things going.
As stated by NJ and myself, get the E.L. tested, Marcel its not worth taking any chances.
I am not a chance taker. And I want to learn more about electricity. I'm quite good with it, but when it comes to electronics, not so much.
I would and have said to anyone having a problem is to isolate to device causing the problem and replace it, there is nothing else one can do to repair it! unless you want to play with your life, I sure know I don't.
Stray voltage is not related to how many pumps you have, its related to how many faulty pumps you have!
Agreed, there are many factors involved, and we can get extremely technical on this topic, however, it won't discredit the fact that a tank is safer with a ground probe.
I under stand your frustration WRT the other tank having problems with grounding, however there must be something wrong with one of the pumps or something.
The pump is brand new!
Try unplug ALL the attached devices, place the DVM between the probe and earth set to mA, and plug one item in at a time, you should soon find the item/s causing the problem.
Will do so and post it here.
Just because the pump runs it doesn't mean it safe, so yes, buying used equipment has its risks. If I find a pump or device with a problem, I cut the cord right where it enters the pump, this way no one can use it again.
That is very nice of you, but I highly doubt that the majority would do that as they would not know about a problem regarding leakage.
As for trying to find a solution to this problem, I'm busy brain storming a couple ideas, but I will take a bit of time, and test accurately could be a bit tricky
Now I have you there, where I want you to.I will help you!
I'm really not here to fight or argue, I just don't want to loose another MASA family member.
I guess you refer to Herkie. I could not imagine that something like that could happen.
Right now, either the reefer and family is in danger, because of tanks that's not grounded or their livestock because of an upcoming electrolysis, because their tank is grounded.
I would like to see a solution for both, which should become a standard installation and necessity just like a return pump.
That is the target and we should get there together somehow.
I wouldn't say that 20mA is nothing, as its enough to cause damage. and yes, I wouldv'e expected the E.L. to trip long before you had such bad problems, hence I'm concerned about your E.L. switch and wiring.
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Chill, sit back, open aand have a look at your wonderful aquarium. Thanks for the insightful thread guys.
Cheers!
I'm out of
Is that why you so grumpy.
You should be concerned about everybody's E.L.!
Where I use to live and where I started breeding, I had peace of mind as I re-wired the whole house myself. Now I have to trust the installation where I live now.