Whitespot - new sailfin and cleaner shrimp

CameL said:
Oodinium – Marine Velvet or Coral Fish Disease
Treatment: Freshwater dip, QT with copper based medication. Methylene Blue

Cryptocaryon irritans – White spot or Marine Ich
Treatment – Copper, Formalin, Copper and Formalin, Hyposalinity, Daily water changes i.e. Bucket Method

Brooklynella hostilis
Treatment – 15 minute freshwater dip, 15 minute formalin dip followed by long term formalin bath, 25ppm formalin solution or 0.0625ml per litre of water in QT
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Nice work bud. :thumbup:

Lets analyze these treatments and drill down a bit...:)
Lets look at Amyloodinium ocellatum (Oodinium)
We read that copper is used in the treatment of this disease. What does the copper actually do? Does it kill the parasite? or Does it do something else?

What does a FW dip do for this parasite?

We will talk about Methylene Blue and Quinine hydrochloride later and if the bucket method is effective or not.
 
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Copper Treatment:

“At recommended Cu2+ concentrations of 0.15-0.20mg/l, free copper is toxic to a number of organisms that are pathogens of fish, including the marine parasites cryptcaryon irritans and amyloodinium ocellatum. However, copper is effective primarily against the free-swimming, ineffective stages of these parasites – The cryptocaryon theronts and the amyloodinium dinospores (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988). Therefore, An understanding of the life cycle of these parasites is critical, and prolonged treatments (A minimum of 3-4 weeks for cryptocaryon and 10-14 days for amyloodinium) are generally required (Yanong 2009; Reed and Francis-Floyd 1994).”

FA165/FA165: Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems

Freshwater dips are highly effective against a wide range of parasites, although their effect against whitespot has been questioned. It is “proven effective against Amyloodinium, Turbellarian Worms (the so-called Black Ich), some Flukes (Noga, 2000), and Uronema (Kollman, 2003)”
 
Let us re-look at the life cycle of whitespot

10944d5110a7027e1.jpg


Focus on the time periods!

CameL said:
copper is effective primarily against the free-swimming, ineffective stages of these parasites
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Ok, so in a maximum cycle of 7 days parasitic. 18 hours dropping off, 28 days to hatch and another day to find a host. You are targeting whitespot with copper for only 2 days window, out of a 35 days period. And to be effective, your copper must be at optimal levels. Percentage wise, what is that? 5.71% opening? So the rest 95% of the time you are actually wasting your time to try use copper.

At the minimum, 3 days parasitic, 3 days reproductive stage. Lets give it 4 hours to drop of and find the bottom of the tank. And say 4 hours to find a host. In our small little glass boxes the chances of finding a host is very much in their favor. So that gives us 6 days and 8 hours cycle. Of that 8 hours free swimming. So 0.3 (third of a day) / 6.3 days and we have a window of oppertunity to kill whitespot with copper of only 4.76%.

Russian Roulette you got a bullet in one of six chambers, a 16.67% change to blow your brains out. A far better (or worst) window of opportunity.

For me, copper is like spinning around 10 times, then trying to throw a dart into a dartboard blindfolded.
 
OK copper does not kill amyloodinium ocellatum.:m79: It is effective in the treatment, but copper increases the "slime coat" of the fish. In other words the copper causes the fish to produce excess mucous not allowing the Ambly to penetrate. :)
 
Okay, it's all gone click finally. Thanks Riaan, for pointing out that copper is not the most effective method of treatment, however, was answering the question as to what copper does.

I have never dealt with the disease, so difficult to have practical knowledge.

I do, however, see how the bucket method is guaranteed to rid the fish of whitespot, as the adult drops off the fish before encystment the fish is removed from the area, therefore not able to find a host.
If i understand it all correctly.

Excuse me but the flu has hit me.
 
Nemos Janitor said:
It is effective in the treatment, but copper increases the "slime coat" of the fish. In other words the copper causes the fish to produce excess mucous not allowing the Ambly to penetrate.
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So I learn something new every day.
 
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Interesting link, may be old but much of the information is still highly relevant.

Thanks for the exercise, and the questions. Learned alot by reading and trying to answer those.
@Papitto, how is the fish now and how are you going to treat ?
 
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Thanks Riaan P and NJ, the pic you posted of the UK sailfin looks spot on to What my fish has, Its busy in treatment with Cuprazin, How long should the fish be I QT and the treatment instructions go to 10 days, I know you strongly recommend the drip treatment, I just don't have the facilitates to do this and guys have had success with Copper. I would imagine a water Change. Is it also recommended I do fresh water dip on the fish?

Here is the Big Question what about my other fish in my reef tank. showing no signs of being sick, is there an per cation I can take with them, removing them would be a mammoth task?
 
For me, I would recommend a FW dip if the fish is strong and eating well. The FW dip will not kill the parasite but will give the fish relief. I would then continue with the Cuprazin treatment.

If your sick fish was in the reef tank then the parasite is in your reef tank. Some fish may become immune to the parasite.

Once your sick fish is cured and put back into your reef aquarium it may contract the disease again. The only way to eradicate the disease is to remove all fish and treat. then let the tank stand without fish and inverts for 4-6 weeks.
 
Most literature will tell you you cant eradicate WS in a reef tank with chemicals. However I have used Myaxzin in reef aquariums before. It seems to help. Myaxzin is not "reef safe". so sensitive corals and inverts may be compromised.
 
Nemos Janitor said:
let the tank stand without fish and inverts for 4-6 weeks.
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Inverts can stay in the main display, if you are not going to add any chemicals. Only fish are hosts. If you are planning to nuke your display with a concoction of chemicals, rather remove your inverts. Keep in mind the effect of those chemicals to the microbial organisms within your liverock.

So all your hermits and shrimps can stay with your corals. Remember to feed them. But really not a lot.
 
Well the sailfin just kicked it, Bummed. now I'm waiting the main display Reef tank fish arent showing any signs of stress!
 
Bobby85 said:
Well the sailfin just kicked it, Bummed. now I'm waiting the main display Reef tank fish arent showing any signs of stress!
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So my tang is still alive, but didn't observe him eating the brine as normal. Just staying in back corner of my tank, but no longer has spots on it. I notice that the abdomen where is or looks swollen and breathing heavy.

I have a 30 gallon tank I used for cichlids which I need to clean out. I have pumps, heater, thermometer, but little salt left. Would this be my route to take or is my tang doomed like previous post?
Did my lfs bomb my healthy tank with an infected fish...
 
Hard to claim the LFS bombed it, your responsibility to quarantine unfortunately.
From what i understand and from the discussion last night, the white spot has reached the end of it's life cycle, and dropped off the fish. It is now in your tank, you will need to quarantine the fish now.
Refer to the bucket method of treatment, as it begins it's new life cycle searching for a host.
Your display tank must stand for 6-8 weeks without fish for the whitespot to die.
 
Papitto said:
Did my lfs bomb my healthy tank with an infected fish...
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Your responsibility to quarantine.
Think how many fish the LFS lands every week. What is the turnover in those tanks? Can hardly expect them to have clean healthy systems.

Only LFS that is almost guaranteed not to have any whitespot. Is a shop that got brand new tanks and their first shipment EVER.
 
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