Live stock dying, who's fault

Discussion in 'Marine Fish Discussions' started by Alan, 14 Sep 2007.

Voter count: 30
?

When live stock dies with in 48hrs of purchase, who's at fault?

Poll closed 14 Oct 2007.
  1. The Supplier

    3 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. The Aquarist

    7 vote(s)
    23.3%
  3. Both 50/50

    20 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. Alan

    Alan Admin MASA Contributor

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    I am going to raise a question here as i would like to see the general feel of hobbyist. This is not a thread that is meant to point fingers at any supplier, but rather to open up some healthy debate and would like to hear from our live stock suppliers as well to hear both sides of the argument.
    When we buy live stock esp fish from a pet shop and it dies with in 48hrs. Who is at fault here, the aquarist or the pet shop? Please give a reason for the vote.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 14 Sep 2007
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  3. Midasblenny

    Midasblenny

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    I dont think its that simple alan. A hobbyest should be aware of what to look out for in a sick coral or fish and not buy unless a specimen is totally healthy. It could be that an individual appears healthy but the stresses of its new enviroment is just too much and it doesn`t make it but its not really anyones fault.
     
  4. SIMS

    SIMS

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    I recon 50/50

    It could either be that the LFS have not followed the QT process 100% and checked that the fish is 100% before selling then again it could be the hobbyist's fault. I have seen with my own eyes that fish are not QT properly in some shops around where I stay and it seems to me that the shop is just trying to move their "product" as fas as possible as if it dies in their tanks then no money can be had. I have even seen a tank full of regal tangs clearly swimming against the rocks trying to scratch the white spot off and the shop assistant claims it was just normal for new fish. they were about R285....

    I sort of understand the LFS reasoning behind this as they need to make profits to stay in business but there should be a line. They are selling living animals after all.

    If we all follow what Midas said we should be able to sellect the fish that are ok but still no guarantee that we get it right...
     
  5. calvin

    calvin

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    I feel i can always change!! for example i have purchased live stock from several importers and from most of them the fish have been in quarintine for several days and i recieve a healthy specimen that either lives or does not! no fault of the importer . However when i have purchased fist from a supplier who does not find it nececary to quarintine and my fish dies in a day perhaps this is my fault for purchasing it from a source that was not paying the animal the attention it needed ?
    Id also like to add that i often buy fish from suppliers like Northlands as they land this if its a specimen that requires high care that it wont recieve in the store during the few days of quarintine (pipe fish ,seahorses ,mothfish....)

    regards
     
  6. Afsal

    Afsal

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    yep, thats true in what u saying midasblenny , the aquarist shud kno what to look for but not all "aquarist" are clued up on what to look for so i think the shops shud also refrain from selling fish that have not been quarantined or are not feeding !!!
    so my vote wud be 50/50
     
  7. joe

    joe

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    IMHO many aquarist are ignorant and rely on the LFS owners to give good advice , however most LFS owners are consumed with greed and would sell anything to anyone .
    How many of us have received rubbish advice on livestock from variuos LFS?
    I say LFS should be more responsible when selling livestock.
     
  8. calvin

    calvin

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    many shop owners are simply greedy but there are good honest people around !! and perhaps it these people we should be trusting!! Northlands pets ,Azure aquatics ,Aquality to mention a few
     
  9. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    its 50/50.in short,the supplier should not release any unhealthy fish and the aquarist should know which fish is healthy before purchasing and if the aquarist is new to the hobby the supplier should inform the aquarist that the livestock is unhealthy rather than knock of the ignorant aquarist :D
     
  10. Alan

    Alan Thread Starter Admin MASA Contributor

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    I have to ask a question here. Is it not our responsibility to make sure the animal we are buying is in good health, before spending our hard earned cash?
    I also hear the argument for folk that are new in the hobby and dont know any better and rely totally on the advice of the LFS.
     
  11. Rod

    Rod

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    Caveat emptor! Let the buyer beware.
    No supplier in my experience intentionally sells sick fish. However there are so many variables that as Midasblennie says its not that simple. How does a supplier know what the conditions are in your aquarium? Suitable species? Did you actually listen to advice? etc etc
     
    Last edited: 14 Sep 2007
  12. Alan

    Alan Thread Starter Admin MASA Contributor

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    Calvin i did ask in the beginning of the thread not to mention any names of suppliers whether it is good or bad. It is not meant to praise or trash anybody, but just generally to get a feel of what folk think.
     
  13. Rory

    Rory Admin MASA Contributor

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    Tough question because there are quite a few other factors as to why the fish may die. And then whose "fault" it is is another story altogether...

    I think pretty much all LFS don't quarantine enough, but then we can't expect them to be able to afford to. They already making very little money on fish and they cost us so much already as well I wouldn't want the LFS to have to spend even more.
     
  14. Rod

    Rod

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    Quarantine? How long should one quarantine for say whitespot? If they have been quarantined will they now never get whitespot? TMC in the UK run their fish in copper systems. They have separate systems for their inverts.
    Will the aquarist pay a premium for fully quarantined fish?
     
  15. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i think its our responsibility Alan.well that is for a person that knows the health of a fish when looking at it not a beginner
     
    Last edited: 14 Sep 2007
  16. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    Hi all - if I may offer "what I think": I think that there's definitely a 50/50 ownership here: The LFS or supplier should be able to identify whether the buyer is a newby or an experienced hobbyist by having a chat and asking "the right questions" (i.e. water quality questions - temp, alkalinity, nitrate levels, ammonia levels, etc). If the LFS person realises that this is a newby - try and steer them away from i.e. PB tangs, etc... (those fish that do die easily and get white spot very quickly, etc)... and rather suggest more hardy fish that do not get sick easily. Thus saving the poor lifestock, as well as educating the newby.

    Then again - experienced hobbyists should take it upon themselves to ask the right questions - and offer the information about their own systems at home - and if they do not receive the correct answers, then they should leave the life-stock alone....... or change LFS.....
     
  17. PAT

    PAT

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    it could be either at fault because not everyone incl the LFS knows all the signs of stressed fish. some LFS tell you when the ship load is arriving, that afternoon you see all the fish being taken out of the packets and the next day there is no sign to say in quarantine, all there is, is the price list, it is up to you to ask if they can keep the fish and you collect later or take a chance and take it immediately even if the shipment came the night before, it is at your own risk. But then there are the few who do mention when the shipment is arriving but they also put a date as to when the fish will be available normally a week later. not many of them around.
     
  18. Muz

    Muz

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    Too many variables !!

    I was at a LFS 2 hours ago when a shipment landed, I was HORRIFIED at what I saw taking place, they were basically killing the fish, no dripping, no floating, no checking of water, they could not even tell me what the salinity of their tanks were nor the temp, about 50% of the shipment died on the spot ( triggers, 6 line wrasse, regals.. it was a sad moment ).. while I was jumping around having blood vessels pop out my eye balls, they blamed the shipping saying that the fish arrived like that.. that may be the case with some of the fish but I saw what I saw.

    Now, if I arrived the next day and bought something ( which is probably gonna happen to someone ), I could be as careful as I wanted the fish would probably not make it..

    In my case if I see a fish I want , I pay for it and tell the LFS to keep it for me for 2 weeks, it does not always work because it is not a strict QT, but if a fish can survive in most of the LFS tanks out there for 2 weeks, it can survive in mine, I then take home and QT if possible.

    Nice thread though, I often hear the other end of the stick where people phone and complain to the LFS that a fish died and they blame the LFS when clearly they do not know what they are doing.. it must be frustrating.

    Muz
     
  19. neilharris

    neilharris

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    What happened to collector and collection methods?????? LFS is not always to blame for livestock degrading over time. I, myself have lost 2 fish to cynide poisoning. Tested and proven. Fish were happy, feeding and healthy in the lfs. After about 6 weeks in my system, started showing signs of poisoning. They gradually declined until I dispatched them:death: .

    Not a pleasant thing for me to do....

    I do stand by the fact that anyone keeping any animal has a lawful duty of care and if they are uncertain about the health or longevity of any species in their care, they should refrain from purchasing or acquiring them (all in one breath, pheew....)

    If in doubt, leave it out.........:slayer: :slayer: :slayer:
     
  20. Hill

    Hill

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    Agree Niel

    We only have one LFS here. They to acclimatise to an extent but it could be better. They source their stock from 2 different suppliers. From the one the fish you purchase has a 50/50 chance of surviving. From the other a 90% chance of surviving. I used to get the sales person to tell me supplier one or two before purchasing. I never buy sick looking fish. But have often, in the past, put a fish in my tank and never seen it again.
     
  21. seank

    seank

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    Agree with you. Saw similar things at local Lfs as well as fact that 04 fish died within 02 days of purchase (different occations) as well as 02 small softies
     
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