Some kind of bacteria

Hi Lanzo -

As LikesFish said - no - RO water cannot cause this. Even tough you don't have a DSB, it looks like you sand-bed in the DT is at least 4-5cm deep. So, it could be the start of denitrification. BUT, as I said - I see a lot of green algae in the top surface layer of the substrate - so, as LikesFish has said - if this happens in the day - then it could definitely be oxygen production.... and perhaps carbon dioxide production in the night-time...
 
lanzo said:
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This appears to be Nitzschia (Diatoms) among green filamentous algae. The trapped bubbles of oxygen produced by photosynthesis. Cause could be silicate supplied with top-up water. Strong flow should solve this in a short time.
 
Yeah that is another thing - those bubbles should not be so abundant (and the algae) had there been more intense flow.
 
LikesFish said:
Not true. Typical ocean values are < 0.005ppm. Values larger than 0.03ppm will fuel algae growth and inhibit calcification.
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Quote: Seachem - "Natural sea water ranges from less than 0.01 mg/l to 0.3 mg/l. For corals in reef aquaria, such phosphates should be 0.2 mg/l or less. Phosphates aoe non-toxic to fish and most invertebrates, but ideally kept below 1 mg/L to minimize algae growth."

Source - Seachem Laboratories Inc.
 
Warr7207 said:
Always thought Seachem didn't know what they talking about :whistling:
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As I said, it depends on what you are measuring. Saying 0.3mg/l phosphate is contradictory. If your test kit measures in P, then from 0.03mg/L and higher will cause trouble. If you measure in PO4 3- then that 0.03mg/L P corresponds to 0.092mg/L PO4 3-, or 0.1mg/L (rounded). So your seachem test kit most probably uses PO4 3- and I still believe it is wrong if it states that 0.3mg/L is acceptable, as I had SEVERE algae issues at 0.18mg/L PO4 3- (0.06 mg/L P). Only once I got it down to about 0.046 mg/L PO4 3- (0.015 mg/L P) did the algae issues go away.

This is based on Randy Holmes Farley's articles as well as Merck/D-Deltec's recommendations in their R700 high sensitivity phosphate test kit.
 
LikesFish said:
As I said, it depends on what you are measuring. Saying 0.3mg/l phosphate is contradictory. If your test kit measures in P, then from 0.03mg/L and higher will cause trouble. If you measure in PO4 3- then that 0.03mg/L P corresponds to 0.092mg/L PO4 3-, or 0.1mg/L (rounded). So your seachem test kit most probably uses PO4 3- and I still believe it is wrong if it states that 0.3mg/L is acceptable, as I had SEVERE algae issues at 0.18mg/L PO4 3- (0.06 mg/L P). Only once I got it down to about 0.046 mg/L PO4 3- (0.015 mg/L P) did the algae issues go away.

This is based on Randy Holmes Farley's articles as well as Merck/D-Deltec's recommendations in their R700 high sensitivity phosphate test kit.
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As I said, Seachem obviously conning us reefers. Also they said "For corals in reef aquaria, such phosphates should be 0.2 mg/l or less." :whistling: not "I still believe it is wrong if it states that 0.3mg/L is acceptable"

To be quite honest if you have to pay R700 for one phosphate test kit, you may as well just "hit or miss" the phosphate levels.
 
Does not matter - 0.2mg/L is still too high. The problem with phosphates is that most cheap hobby test kits (like the Seachem) cannot measure to the desired sensitivity required in order to determine whether phosphates are the issue or not. Please read up on the subject (not in the Seachem booklet but from scientific research done independently from any commercial interest). You will find that natural sea water has much lower concentration of phosphates than what you stated (the original point I was trying to make) - even when measured in PO4 3-, and that algae will be fueled by phosphates if you do not keep it to levels lower than what the Seachem can measure.

And about the R700 - everyone knows how good the Merck kit is, and that it is one of the very few test kit than can measure down to 0.008 P. Your reasoning just does not make sense about the hit and miss. If I pay R200 for a test kit that can measure say down to 0.05mg/L PO4 3-, which will still cause algae to grow, and I can pay R700 for a test kit that can measure down to 0.008 mg/L P, where phosphates will not fuel algae growth, then surely it makes sense to buy the more expensive (but more accurate/sensitive) test kit if you are serious about getting rid of elevated phosphate levels?

But I am not going to argue about this - this is my opinion only. I am no chemist and this is an open forum - so take it or leave it.
 
LikesFish said:
Does not matter - 0.2mg/L is still too high. The problem with phosphates is that most cheap hobby test kits (like the Seachem) cannot measure to the desired sensitivity required in order to determine whether phosphates are the issue or not. Please read up on the subject (not in the Seachem booklet but from scientific research done independently from any commercial interest). You will find that natural sea water has much lower concentration of phosphates than what you stated (the original point I was trying to make) - even when measured in PO4 3-, and that algae will be fueled by phosphates if you do not keep it to levels lower than what the Seachem can measure.

And about the R700 - everyone knows how good the Merck kit is, and that it is one of the very few test kit than can measure down to 0.008 P. Your reasoning just does not make sense about the hit and miss. If I pay R200 for a test kit that can measure say down to 0.05mg/L PO4 3-, which will still cause algae to grow, and I can pay R700 for a test kit that can measure down to 0.008 mg/L P, where phosphates will not fuel algae growth, then surely it makes sense to buy the more expensive (but more accurate/sensitive) test kit if you are serious about getting rid of elevated phosphate levels?

But I am not going to argue about this - this is my opinion only. I am no chemist and this is an open forum - so take it or leave it.
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Actually I don't have R700 per test kit which would end up being in the region of R6-7K for all the kits needed. You may have that sort of budget for test kits, this is why I would just rather "hit and miss" with my cheap kit.

The shocking reality is how these test kit manufacturer get away with this mis-information.

I am no chemist, thereby I should use no test kits ?
 
No it is just the P kit that is so expensive - all the other parameters can be checked just fine with the normal kits like TM etc.

I do not understand your last comment.
 
LikesFish / Warr - keeping marines is DEFINITELY NO EXACT SCIENCE. I think that there are VERY few people with the knowledge, the equipment, the time OR any other resources, that can either prove or disprove ANYTHING that is in the water of the marine tanks we keep. The same goes for fresh-water. Unless anyone here has a master's degree in micro-biology, AND chemistry, AND marine biology - NONE of this is really FACT.

We do the best that we can do, in order to try and keep the life entrusted into our care, ALIVE and healthy. Yes - we know that phosphates feeds macro algae - that is the same amount of knowledge someone has who has the MOST beautiful garden. That does not mean they have ANY degrees in keeping those plants alive. They just know that they should feed the plants, and that they can see the results in whether the plants are happy or not.
The same goes for our tanks. The same goes for us.
Nobody requires a degree to keep ANY pets, whether birds, dogs, cats, horses, snakes, spiders, marine fish, corals, etc..... All fall into the same degree.

The point I am trying to make is - yes - we try and believe what the "so-called" specialists and people who indeed have degrees tell us. For the rest, we just try our utmost best to try and keep the animal lives in our tanks, happy, and alive.... however way we as individuals achieve this.
 
Sure. I was just trying to correct a statement I believe is wrong. If someone says: Keep your Ammonia levels under 10ppm then your fish would be healthy, I'd chime in and say not it is not true, at that level it has been proven many times by many different institutions/researchers that you will kill most of your livestock. Keep it under 0.1ppm and you stand a much better chance.

I do not see it as a reasonable argument to say that nobody really knows anything for a fact, and that almost nobody can prove anything, and that unless you personally have all the required qualifications you cannot make a stand against something you believe to be untrue and could potentially cause harm to living animals.

A lot of research has been done over the years by a huge amount of different people - from oceanographic institutes, to university graduates to hobbyists to who knows who else. We know a LOT of things we did not know 15 years ago - so much so that 15 years ago keeping a full blown SPS tank was considered almost impossible. Today it is much easier. There is still a lot more to learn, but we certainly know a lot already.

Lots of things have absolutes. One of them is the average phosphate level in the ocean. It has been measured at a huge variety of locations using accurate equipment. Also, a lot of research has proven that high phosphate levels causes inhibition of calcification as well as fuel algae growth. Where that level exactly is has also been established to within some degree of error. And from everything I have researched on the subject and based on personal observation, at the levels supposedly quoted by Seachem as OK for phosphate, I believe it to be in error and actually will cause people reading these forums seeking help, to be misled.

There needs to be some kind of balance between making a statement and being corrected. Obviously it will boil down to the civility of the argument, and assuming it is civil, the quality of references cited. In my case I tend to believe articles written by RHF and statements made by Merck/D-Deltec way above a company such as Seachem, since they are just in different leagues.

My 2c.
 
LikesFish said:
A lot of research has been done over the years by a huge amount of different people - from oceanographic institutes, to university graduates to hobbyists to who knows who else.
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These educated people have to take these uncaring and non-knowledgeable marine product manufacturers to task. Example: You can't tell people it is OK to run petrol in a diesel engine. Whats going on here?

These educated people need to come down from their ivory towers and do something, no point in publishing journals that the layman is not even aware of.

They need to take legal action or all their research and findings really mean nothing.

I am gob-smacked, I cannot trust any of these test kits again, for all I know, when pH reads 8.2 it could be 6.2 ??
 
O.k flow is more in the tank!
Bubles is less but the other stuff is takening over the tank and my dsb is black on the top
 
This is pic i took on sunday, today my sump was black on the top, so i took it out with my hand(slymi stuff)
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This is a pic of today(DT)
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this alage above my monti, is this good algae?
They are also all over my tank.
 
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