X-Tra-X discussion

Discussion in 'Water Parameters and Additives' started by dallasg, 29 Oct 2012.

  1. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Reef X-tra-X
    Many synthetic reef salt blends on the market today contain all the major minerals found in natural seawater, but, lack the vitally important micro nutrients that are are vital for the survival of corals and other marine animals. Without these micro minerals, growth in corals and fish could become stunted and in severe cases it could result in death
    Reef X-tra-X is a natural supplement , specifically developed to replace all micro minerals that have been utilized by corals and other marine animals. Made from 100% pure natural seawater, Reef X-tra-X contains all minerals that are vital to the survival of corals.

    It also contains Vitamin-C and Amino Acids
    Elements to name a few:
    Lithium, Beryllium, Boron, Carbon, Fluorine, Sodium, Chloride, Magnesium, Aluminum, Sulfur, Chlorine, Potassium, Calcium, Scandium, Titanium, Vanadium, Chromium, Manganese, Lanthanum, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper, Zinc, Gallium, Selenium, Bromine, Rubidium, Strontium, Yttrium, Zirconium, Niobium, Molybdenum, Technetium, Ruthenium, Palladium, Silver, Cadmium, Indium, Cesium, Barium, Praseodymium, Cerium, Iron, Neodymium, Samarium, Europium, Gadolinium, Terbium, Dysprosium, Holmium, Erbium, Thallium, Ytterbium, Lutetium, Tungsten, Rhenium, Iridium, Platinum, Gold, Lead, Bismuth

    Available in 250ml, 500ml bottles of Joy :)

    ReefXtraX.png
     
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  3. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    Sounds to me like a bit of a shotgun approach with claims that cannot be verified i.e. " Reef X-tra-X contains all minerals that are vital to the survival of corals."

    Most of the fancy chemicals listed have no known biological function, and many are also toxic (although probably not in the low concentrations present).

    Proably the only real ingredients of significant value are amino acids and Vitamin C.

    If there are any publications/journals which can substantiate the claims that all these micro-elements are vital to the survival of corals I'd be very interested in seeing them.

    I wonder how everyones corals have lived and flourished for so long without this stuff before if these elements are so "vital"
     
  4. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    @Albert Terego, this is how I look at it, it's derived from the ocean, so it must be used in some form or another, even in minute parts. Can you also provide any scientific articles stating that corals HAVE survived WITHOUT these elements? Nature evolved from what was around it, it uses many "ingredients" to survive, yes some are not utilised by one species of coral, but another will, take the tube worms living at the bottom of the ocean near volcanic vents, the bacteria in the worms flourish off the high sulphuric content and acidic waters, which then feed the tube worms.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  5. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    maybe.... but....
    Can one verify the micro elements that come with a waterchange as this is a function of a waterchange?
     
  6. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    While i expect many people to think is a magic mix, the proof is in my tank, i only use it, cubes and no WC, i am running at perfect params, and in 18 months of no water change havent lost a coral.

    Its made from the sea, along the same processes as ISC do in Israel for Red Sea etc, except we get 2 oceans here.

    the aim of this product is the addition of micro trace elements, nothing more
     
  7. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    I'm not saying it does or does not work, but if claims are made then they should be verifiable and backed up with evidence. For instance where are the controls i.e the same set-up run with and without the product, are the results reproducible etc. etc., proof that any livestock actually incorporated these elements into their structures, and if they did what proof is there that these elements provided any biological function, and if so, was that function beneficial?

    Claims like these would never be defensible legally without the above.

    The burden of proof rests on the party making the claim - it is not for anyone else to disprove a claim they are not making.

    It's really a basic scientific concept - Whoever bears the burden of proof must present sufficient evidence to move the conclusion to their own position. The burden of proof must be fulfilled both by establishing positive evidence and negating oppositional evidence. (Wikipedia)

    Claims like these would never be defensible legally without the above.

    So sure it may work, it may not, but to be honest there is no way you can attribute the success of your tank to this product at all.

    I'm going to leave it there, as I have nothing further to add, but everyone needs to understand that just because a claim is made on a bottle it does not mean that it is a) true, and b) verifiable.
     
  8. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    Many micro-elements listed as ingredients of salts are in fact "contaminants" of the major salts used to make up the product eg Sodium Chloride, Potassium Sulphate, Potassium chloride etc. Just because they are listed does not mean they have a known (or unknown) function.

    But where I have a specific problem is the claim that this product in question makes i.e. that the chemicals listed are "vital".

    Where is the proof of this?
     
    Last edited: 30 Oct 2012
  9. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    @Albert Terego i agree 100%, and let me see what i can do
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  10. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I dont see the problem here?
    sea chem also make a similar product and microbelift.

    I dont see you demaning proof from them?
     
  11. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    This not made from salt, it's made from the end products, after the evaporate process. What is left over ,the bitterns, is used. No additives are used.
     
  12. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    Thanks Dallas.

    Please understand I am not trying to knock this product. If the research has been done to verify the claims, and it is scientifically sound, then I would have no problems.

    Actually I would not have had any issue really, if the ingredients were listed without the "vital" claim, although I would have questioned to myself why they were there at all.
     
  13. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i understand, the reasoning is that corals come from NSW, so why not supply that they get, like many elements not all their uses have been found, eg Yttrium, more abundant than silver, found in the human body in 0.04 ppm, yet breast milk contains 4ppm and yet no proof it does anything in humans. but it has medicinal uses

    but yes one can do this for many things
     
  14. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    Cause I have not read any threads on these products, but yes, the burden of proof for all claims rests on whichever manufacturer is making the specific claims.

    If no claims are made then no proof is required.
     
  15. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    they can be found on this very forum...
     
  16. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    Google the ingredients/chemical listed of these above- most all of them do have some biological function (battled to find anything of substance on Rubidium).

    Compare this to things like Yttrium, Zirconium, Niobium, Technetium, Ruthenium, Palladium, Silver, Indium, Cesium, Praseodymium, Neodymium, Samarium, Europium, Gadolinium, Terbium, Dysprosium, Holmium, Erbium, Thallium, Ytterbium, Lutetium, Tungsten, Rhenium, Iridium, Platinum, Gold - no known biological functions

    I'm trying to stimulate some debate here - it is good for us to discuss and debate these issues or else we'll never learn.;)
     
  17. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    agreed id also like to know what its for...

    Debates are great, but shouldn't we have a seprate debate on trace elements in general and not just on one sponsors product discription?
     
  18. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    debate is good

    from seachem site
    and it has Rubidium
     
  19. Albert Terego

    Albert Terego

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    No actually I don't think it should be separated. A new thread though on Trace Elements, benefits, and the various products available can of course be opened by anyone wishing to do so.

    If Orcalabs does not want the product discussed under their sponsor forum then by all means one of the mods can move it to a different area of the forum. I don't think anything I have said has been slanderous, disparaging or negative towards the product and should the evidence be forthcoming I would be more than willing to evaluate it and then modify my opinion if need be.

    My main point is the claims being made for this specific product.

    "but lack the vitally important micro nutrients that are are vital for the survival of corals and other marine animals"

    Which are? Why? Evidence?

    "Without these micro minerals, growth in corals and fish could become stunted and in severe cases it could result in death"

    Evidence?

    "specifically developed to replace all micro minerals that have been utilized by corals and other marine animals."

    Studies that show these are taken up and utilized?

    "Reef X-tra-X contains all minerals that are vital to the survival of corals"

    Proof?
     
  20. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    The claim is that it contains all the minerals vital to corals, not that all the minerals it contains are vital to corals. Have briefly discussed this product with Mark, as I have had similar concerns re addition of potential contaminants such as zinc, copper, lead, etc. a lot of literature is avail regarding toxicity of these elements when elevated, but just as much literature is available in the biological use of for example zinc in the calcification process of scleractinians. The truth is that we do not have current complete assays of salt mixes at our fingertips to show deficiencies. Which are elevated and which are lacking in ASW is therefir an unknown and my guess would be that as per the first reply, shotgun approach.
    To say that i know of a dew ppl which have been using it for some time without deliterious effects is a moot point, as it falls into the category of "my tank never looked better."

    Having said that, i have had a few conversations with Mark from OAL and he doesn't seem to be the type to release a product without tonnes of research and loads of science behind it. Guess the best would be for him to chime in.

    If anything, i hope this debate sparks some of us to go and do some thorough research, with the hope of better understanding what is really going on in our glass boxes.
     
  21. KillerWhale

    KillerWhale

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    Where would corals grow best? in your fish tank or in the ocean?
     
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