Who's to blame? LFS or YOU!!

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by Nemos Janitor, 6 Oct 2013.

Voter count: 58
?

Who is to blame for a disease tank wipeout?

Poll closed 26 Oct 2013.
  1. It is the LFS to blame for a disease tank wipeout.

    17.2%
  2. It is the Aquarist to blame for a disease tank wipeout.

    82.8%
  1. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    We have seen quite a lot of threads where the aquarist blames tank crashes or fish deaths on a LFS. They then jump on the forum making all sorts of claims. Lets discuss who ultimately is responsible for the crash or disease outbreak. Would like to hear other views on this subject. So please post your view here and vote who you think is ultimately responsible.

    My take....

    LFS have a business and display their livestock for sale in holding tanks. Some LFS pay better attention to the state of the holding tanks. Some of the LFS have a separate section, normally out of site from the customer, where sick and diseased fish are treated prior to sale. Other LFS put a note on the tank stating that the fish are sick and are undergoing treatment and are not for sale. Both are acceptable and customers are appreciative that the LFS is caring for the livestock. At this point i must state that all fish are susceptible to disease and all fish carry parasites. None are excluded. So it is not a LFS fault that fish get sick if kept in clean well looked after holding tanks.

    The first thing an aquarist need to do before purchasing any live stock is have a browse around the LFS and get a feel for the general condition of the holding tanks. If they are dirty and the live stock does not look spritely then walk away from that LFS. If everything looks cool and you are happy with the conditions that the livestock are being kept in then the next step is to ask the assistant helping you to show it eating. It is pointless to purchase livestock then after issues rant on the forum about the conditions and state of the LFS.

    Even very well kept and reputable LFS can and do, on occasion, sell sick fish. This is not intentional. It is just that the fish has not shown any signs or symptoms of the disease. Besides it is your duty to check that the fish has no spot or disease symptoms. If you badly want the fish and it has symptoms ask the LFS to treat the fish before you purchase or buy the fish knowing the risk and your ability to treat the fish.

    Quarantine tanks are there for a purpose. That is to make sure that the new purchase is free from disease and will not wipe out your complete system. If one puts a new purchased fish directly into your display and it infects and wipes out all your live stock it is not the LFS fault. It is your fault for playing russian roulette.

    I have also had it where customers have bought light globes and change the brand. Most of the coral died because they were not acclimated. The customer wanted the corals replaced because he blamed the lights. When it is not the lights it is the aquarists fault for not acclimating.

    So for me, it is the reefers responsibility to ensure that the purchase experiance goes smothly and that only healthy LS is introduced.
     
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  3. 3dd

    3dd

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    Agreed, never put any fish into the main tank if it hasn't been quarantined
     
  4. rhox

    rhox

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    well said!!:thumbup:
     
  5. jono

    jono MASA Contributor

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    I agree and disagree as you are 100 % correct if the aquarist has been in the hobby for a while they should know how to look for these symptoms before purchasing and introducing new fish. One thing i always ask the lfs to do is feed and if they have been treated for any diesease. I will book a fish and wait at least three days before i fetch my new fish.

    Where i disagree is the lfs are supposed to know what they are doing and should always quarintine fish properly before selling on to the consumer. Am i not right? Ive been at a lfs and the fish arrive and 20mins later shipped off to a client and i feel this is not correct as they are soooooooo stressed out!!

    Not all aquarists are "experts" and i feel that the guys just starting out should get the best advice from a lfs as thats all they know who to talk to and get good advice and hopefully they get informed of this awsome site where there are a lot of experienced parties can assist them instead they get sold alot of wrong things and wrong info.

    This is my 2c worth :whistling:
     
  6. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Actually, I do not even want my fish I want to enter the holding systems at the LFS. The longer they are in there, the higher the risk of catching something. Think about it, if the fish is in there for 1 week prior to you buying it, and they got a turnover of say 50 fish a week. And if whitespot cyst got 7 days to 28 days to hatch. How many fish went through that tank by the time you buy it. Or how many fish was in there, dropping parasites that could still impact your fish? Easily 200 fish.

    And you need one sick one.

    And you cannot blame the LFS for not keeping whitespot free systems. To be able to do that he would need one tank setup per fish. And have it empty for at least 4 weeks after the last fish was in there. Cannot be done.

    It is your responsibility to quarantine fish and your corals. Check for flatworms or small crabs. You cannot blame the shop when things go pear shape.

    I've been in a lot of shops. Sponsor and non-sponsor. The tanks or shop does not need to be 1st class to have healthy fish. Tanks can be old, glass can be scratched. Stands rusted. In a way old systems is an indication of how good the shop is really doing. I mean, if the shop is there for 10 years, that must mean something. It is the way they treat the fish. What is inside the tanks that counts. Coral tanks with bubble algae or aiptasia everywhere and I'm will just look at the corals.
     
  7. Bendor

    Bendor

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    Lfs are just one stop in a long line of stops since the fish was caught (wild caught). Most people would buy fish out of the lfs qaurintine tank before the 4 weeks is up. Should the lfs then protect the fish from the buyer and refuse to sell? A good middle ground for me is a lfs that keep clean tanks, give good advice when they can, say I Don't Know! When they don't know instead of giving half arsed advice that concludes with it's "fine" if you put this fish/coral in your tank in an attempt to make the sale and allows a 3 day booking to see how the fish is doing as @jono said. The buyer needs to know what he is buying. Not all of us can spot early disease but all of us can read a quick compatibility chart on live aquaria.

    When the healthy looking fish leaves the healthy looking lfs to go to the buyers house all bets are off and it's the buyers choice to qaurintine or not. If the fish doesn't fit well with your tank, if it was a 50/50 coral eater that didn't work out and the lfs is willing to take back the fish, that's a major bonus and most lfs's do.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  8. Bendor

    Bendor

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    Also keep in mind that many guys have only one lfs available to them. You're kind of forced to take what you get and make the best of it.
     
  9. jono

    jono MASA Contributor

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    @RiaanP think of it from a bigginers point of view not us that have had tanks for years. I know of a few lfs that refuse to give you fish until they have run meds/copper and as far as im concerned they are looking out for the fish and the consumer which i feel is right.
    I had an instance where by i bought a coral and it wasnt really opening and the lfs said its because they just added chems and with in an hour it will be perfect, which he proceded to sell it to me. It never made two days in my tank i then went back to the store and i was told it was my water being a newby i was shocked and couldnt believe it as everything in my tank was flourishing, so i went home and got a sample of m y water and returned and demanded they test my water as they said it was due to that, they did and all was spot on then i requested another coral or my money back. Long story short after an hour intotal they refused. I was pissed off as that was a R400 coral down the tubes.

    Hope you get wat im trying to say
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  10. Mrclownynennie

    Mrclownynennie

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    Let's agree to disagree!:)
     
  11. jono

    jono MASA Contributor

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    Cool every case is different :peroni:
     
  12. shan

    shan

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    I believe both are to blame to different degrees.

    What I do not like is the way some LFS lie to newbies. Like you can develop a maintence free system - come on, that is just sick. I have an easy o maintain system, but no way maintence free.

    I now only visit LFS that are more honest, or should I say, I visit those who i have a bit more trust in. I research before I buy, and if I go back and the item is sold, then it is sold and I order another.
     
  13. Mrclownynennie

    Mrclownynennie

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    I would say it's responsibility from both sides!LFS has a responsibility to sell healthy stock.I have seen appauling stock and tank condition all they care about is making a profit!We however have to see if the fish are healthy before a purchase is made!if that is possible!like online orders or so!So it is really both sides!
     
  14. jono

    jono MASA Contributor

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    @Nemos Janitor can you add another to your poll every case is different as sometimes its the aquarist fault and sometimes its the lfs??
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  15. Gerhard DP

    Gerhard DP

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    LFS has a responsibility towards their live stock and what they sell.

    Your tank is your and your responsibility alone. What and when you put things in it is YOUR choice.

    If you buy bad stock yes blame it on the bad LFS, if yo put it in your tank blame yourself. Unless the LFS guarantee disease free stock.
     
  16. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    It's always easy to pass the blame

    Research your fish and only buy healthy looking stock. Then quarantine properly and make sure your tank is the correct size, parameters are in check and tank mates are appropriate for your new inmate.
     
  17. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    When I was a noob :p I once drove from PMB to Durban, it's about an hours drive for those that don't know, bought two fish from a pet shop, put the two bags on my back seat and drove straight home, when I got home both the fish were dead, it was a hot day and the sun had been shining on the bags so the water was probably in the region of 30 Celsius or more. That wasn't my fault, no way, I blame the pet shop for selling me dead fish. :goofy::goofy::goofy:

    Sadly it seems that common sense quickly evades a lot of people in cases where their pockets get hurt, it's understandable really, why blame yourself when you can very easily blame someone else.:whistling:
     
  18. Floyd

    Floyd

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    I think each and every case should be compared on its own dynamics....

    Maybe then it's 50:50.

    However, certain LFS should be mindful of the consumer protection act in terms of deceptive marketing.
     
  19. pkc

    pkc

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    I feel that if the hobbyist is new to reef keeping and the lfs workers know that, then it’s a shared responsibility with shop and hobbyist as to how life responds when they come home.
    The lfs staff should know better and the hobbyist should have done their research!
    For a very experienced reefer it’s totally that reefers responsibility!
    It is so easy to visually appraise the health and potential for a long life when looking in the lfs tanks at their life forms.
     
    Last edited: 6 Oct 2013
  20. JohanKotze

    JohanKotze

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    Or in better terms people get stupid and rediculous.
     
  21. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor Thread Starter

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    Bud unfortunately I do not have the necessary privilege to do that. But by all means ask one of the mods to do that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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