White spot on marine what differ from fresh water

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by Cobler, 26 Mar 2014.

  1. Cobler

    Cobler

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    I just started my marine setup and read about white spot on marine fishes, I'm used to fresh water fish keeping. What I normal do when white spot brake out I increase my temp with a few degrees. Say from 25 normal to 30 for a day or two it always worked. I want to know does it work in marine environment ass well?
     
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  3. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Welcome to MASA @Cobler

    The name white spot is only similar in name but completely different between sweet water and seawater. Temperature high enough to kill Cryptocaryon irritans (WS in salt water) will kill the fish first. Whilst it is similar to Ichthyophthirius multifilis (WS in sweet water) treatment is different.

    Why do you ask?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  4. Cobler

    Cobler Thread Starter

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    Was reading a post about White spot and just thinking if this could work in marine tanks. So thanks now I know that a change in temp won't do in a marine setup.
     
  5. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    28 degrees is optimal for marine whitespot.

    Lowering the temperatures in holding systems would slow down the cycle for marines.
     
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  6. jclaas

    jclaas

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    This is what i know with regards to clownfish.

    To treat decrease Sg to 1.011 over a period of one hour. Keep the fish at this Sg for not less than six days. Inverts won't tolerate this treatment so a sterile quarantine tank is advised. Another treatment is to keep copper at 0.20ppm for two weeks combined with 1 drop of Formalin per 5L. However dont do the copper treatment if it is your aim to breed them.
     
  7. hansiemyburgh

    hansiemyburgh

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    Riaan do you say that White Spot happens more at 28deg than 26deg?
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Optimal. Not "more"
    There is a difference in the definition of those words.

    Optimal, as in best growth rate. Fastest live-cycle.
    shorter period as a cyst.

    The numbers would still be the same. So there will not be MORE whitespot. Same numbers, but the number of days the fish are infected is slightly shorter. More noticeable in the cyst period. Colder water and the cyst period can be up to 28 days.

    So how can we use this information?
    Running a bucket method we do not want any cyst to hatch while the fish is still in there. So lower the temp a bit.

    In a holding system? not sure, what is better. I think slower would be better. Still same amount of WS, but if they attack the fish and mature within 3 days, its like a mega onslaught. Compared to maturing over 7 days, yes the period is longer but the daily effect would be lower. Longer would also allow the fish immune system to kick in. Which one is better? 3 days or 7 days I do not know.

    Having an infected display tank, remove all the fish and up the temperature to 28 degrees. The cysts will then hatch quicker, swim around trying to find a host and then they will die. Can have a WS free system quicker than with a system running at 24 degrees.
     
  9. jclaas

    jclaas

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    Lower sg stops cyst from encysting and excysting (hatching).
     
  10. hansiemyburgh

    hansiemyburgh

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    So would it not be better to run a tank with a little bit lower SG than normal? Lets say you run your tank permanently at 1.020 or there about and you run your temp at 28deg always. Then the chances of WS is not so high?
     
  11. jclaas

    jclaas

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    It often infects stressed fish in cycling aquariums and in aquariums with fluctuating temp's.
     
    Last edited: 27 Mar 2014
  12. hansiemyburgh

    hansiemyburgh

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    @jclaas, how much would you say fluctuating temp is?

    0.5deg
    1 deg
    1.5 deg
    2 deg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  13. jclaas

    jclaas

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    Bud all the above info I an sharing with you is in black and white as proof and I personally do not have that answer for you. My personal tanks often fluctuate 0.5c, it cycles to cause nitrite when I over feed and no white spot to this day. I must add tho that I quickly remedy thr problems.
     
  14. hansiemyburgh

    hansiemyburgh

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    ;) Just wanted to check because my tank fluctuates btw 25.9 and 27.2 so it is 1deg. This is in the morning and the afternoon.
     
  15. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    what level do you advise for a infected display tank?
     
  16. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    and sorry, kind of a mistake.
    Real optimal point is 30 degrees. But never push your tank that high. The risks for your corals are just too great. 28 is the maximum that you ever should push the temperature up in a reef display. Hence by the imposed 28 for our reef tanks, the best "optimal" for whitespot in our tanks would be 28.
     
  17. jclaas

    jclaas

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    I can only advise 1.011 sg as that is the information I own. Inverts wont handle that treatment.
     
    Last edited: 27 Mar 2014
  18. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    a full on reef display tank at 1.011 :eek:
    Please do not do that!
    Firstly your corals will die, never mind the inverts. Hermits and shrimps will die at that low levels. Never mind 1.011. The bacteria in your tank as well, sending your system into a big new cycle. Now the fish who is already struggling due to WS on them, must life in an ammonia rich environment. Plus, hypo does not actually help a lot in the infectious stage. So there are no gains keeping fish in hypo. Hypo does not even target theronts, the free swimming stage.

    And for hypo, it should be 1.009 to 1.010. But this is in a fish only system. No liverock that was moved from the display that is used to be at 1.025. all sponges, copepods and what else you cannot see inside that rock will die. No sand or anything that might contain worms, sponges, copepods. Bacteria that in the filtration can go lower, over 2 or 3 days if taken slow and they can adjust. But if you got a DSB, or a shallow sand bed in your display, you basically killed everything except bacteria in it. Wonder what your cheato and caulerpa would do. Check in 2 days.

    Hyposalinity therapy works by interrupting the life cycle at the tomont stage. That is the time after they dropped off the fish and now lies in a cyst on the bottom or inside liverock multiplying.
    A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 25.5 to 26.5 C for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite.

    Please read up a bit more on whitespot before advocating means of fighting it. You simply cannot do hypo in a display tank!

    my summary
    Whitespot: Know your enemy - Marine Aquariums South Africa

    more info
    Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini2.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini3.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini5.htm
     
    Last edited: 27 Mar 2014
  19. jclaas

    jclaas

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    I never said treat your reef tank. We are treating fish , not coral so we must take the fish out.

    I respect the information every individual carries and it will be normal for the individual to paint their information white. It is then up to the reefer in trouble to find the grey part and do as he thinks right.

     
    Last edited: 27 Mar 2014
  20. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    just another observation

    Tomonts/cyst stage is 3 to 28 days, depending on temperature.

    A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 25.5 to 26.5 C for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite.

    So Hypo needs 14 days to kill Tomonts?!?!?

    But if they hatch on 7 days, then what then? Hypo do not kill all tomonts either.

    That is why dropping the temperature in holding system is better, to make sure the bloody whitespot is in tomonts stage for a long enough period so that the hypo can actually work.
     
  21. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Leaving fish in a display tank is the "Hope and Pray" method.

    look at this thread started on 18 March
    Powder Blue Tang - White Spot - Marine Aquariums South Africa

    and on 26 March, his other fish is sick
    So 8 days, for the mature whitespot to drop off, changed into a cyst, hatch, reinfect and become large enough to be noticed. Rather fast I would say.
     
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