What is Pet Stop doing wrong?

Discussion in 'Pet Stop SA' started by Moolis Moolman, 1 Jun 2010.

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  1. Moolis Moolman

    Moolis Moolman Pet Stop SA Sponsor

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    Hi reefers,
    I read constantly that you “cannot keep cauliflower corals & Sun corals to live in captivity. These corals need special setups and Even then they do not always survive. Reefers should not keep them at all!”

    IN THAT CASE We must be doing something wrong!!!! They multiply in our retail coral systems!

    Our sun corals regularly spawn in our shop aquariums!
    [​IMG]
    This is one of the baby's
    Look at the growth of this cauliflower on the grit!
    [​IMG]
    And look at the tube worm growth!
    [​IMG]
    My point with all this ” jerking your chain” is - In a hobbyist’s aquarium these corals can also survive and grow as long as they know the needs of the corals and give it to them, so please bear with them in the future.

    Our experience with them are:
    · Give them good water quality, all our coral aquariums are monitored weekly to keep the Calcium, Hardness, Iodine, strontium, magnesium, Nitrates, Phosphates and pH levels are correct. (salinity is daily)
    · Give them water flow, they do not want slow or stagnant water.
    · Regular water changes with a good quality salt.
    · Give them good quality foods, we feed the following in our coral aquariums:
    o Coral Frenzy – very regularly
    o ALL the different frozen foods available – at least twice a day – this include : Bloodworm (sun) brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, pacific krill, fine mussels, lobster eggs, smelt, rotifers & frozen fish, with nori for the tangs. All this is mashed into a paste.
    o Healthy fed fish lead to lots of fish waste that are used by them. So we stock fish in these systems for the corals.
    With all these food being introduced into our systems, we are forced to dose regularly with Prodibio , but that is not bad as the water quality is excellent and our corals are in good nick.
     
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  3. seank

    seank

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    Moolis, it boils down to experience. We cannot promote keeping coral that will die in the wrong tanks ;)
     
  4. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    Thanx Moolis ... Very helpfull info - The only problem I would think is that although we all supposed to be taking it slow and patient sometimes the "evil" side comes out and we WANT that fantastic looking coral (and make no mistake these are a bit "handsome" compared to other corals) .... so what happens one is not fully familiar with the care involved with some of the more better looking corals and dont do the research but just buy then when things start going downhill then sometimes a bit scared to ask for help for fear of being shunned down n front of everyone here on the forum.... So sometimes its like a scare tactic to say these corals wont make it with the intention that the reefer will wait and learn more and gain experience before getting one of these corals... I stand to correction but if researched properly one can keep any creature from the sea all you need to do is simulate their home and they should be happy .... Hell if I could build a 100000 Litre pool I'm sure I wouldn't get stopped from throwing in tons of different species of fish but for now even I'm limited with my stocking list and I've got 7 tanks and over 2000Ltres ... Even Coral wise I'm still learning but was not like awhile back ... just wanted anything and everything ... So back to your title ... you not doing something wrong .... when reefers are cautioned against something its a milder way of saying "do your homework first" ... Hope this makes sense
     
  5. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

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    I agree with Sean here, leave the sensitive corals either in the ocean or to the advanced/experienced reefers.
     
  6. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    Well said Tobes .... problem is sometimes the ego inside of us says that "I AM EXPERIENCED" and then you go and buy something only to find its soon dead!
     
  7. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    You should add the words "LONG TERM" after your quoted statement :nono:

    The inverts you are bragging about obviously benefit from living in a shop environment - high nutrient levels and rapid organism turnover rate, and those that are doing well (how well ???) are obviously surviving due to a "natural selection" process - something that most aquarists cannot afford to play with due to costs of replacing all the "non-successful" animals in the process (not to mention the morality of this issue)

    By the way, keeping tube worms alive is very easy - just keep their predators away, and they will live just about anywhere:whistling:

    No, Moolis - I certainly DO NOT agree with what you are trying to do, if that is to encourage aquarists to buy these difficult-to-keep-alive-long-term animals from your shop.

    Hennie
     
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  8. crispin

    crispin

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    excelent post hennie.
     
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  9. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Being a shop, you also have the advantage of being able spend hours and hours on your tanks each day meaning you can constantly monitor your tanks and provide the absolutely ideal conditions for these corals...as this is your job. The vast majority of reefers on this site do not have such time to care for demanding corals as they have to juggle their HOBBY with their job, family, etc.
     
  10. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

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    Yip, great post.
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  11. lIghty

    lIghty

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    Mmmmm..... I think this thread may have been taken the wrong way, maybe not?

    I do understand where some are coming from, but this is how I read it and have understood it:

    Moolis has not said everyone should just go and buy these corals, he did stated they are known as being difficult to a point and require certain conditions.



    IMO he has just tried to share his experience with keeping/growing them, maybe bragging a bit? but then again he has been successful hasn't he? He has taken the time to share his knowledge as what he has found to work with them, and detailing it!

    I feel if someone races off to go buy one of them, they should still do their homework, this doesn't mean that a LFS should rid themself from any responsibility selling to unsuitable homes.

    Just my thoughs.
     
  12. scubaninja

    scubaninja

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    +1 to justins post
     
  13. Moolis Moolman

    Moolis Moolman Thread Starter Pet Stop SA Sponsor

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    This post was made to prove a point, that MASA do not hang you if you do something diffrent. I WAS WRONG (see the reefer that refuse to go on to MASA below) excluding lIghty:p
    and tell reefers that if they do have the environment these corals need, they can successfully keep these corals.

    SOME MASA members tend to go extreme in all they do, be it their "engine room" or their disgust at any one going against the norm, was the statement made to me by this reefer. This post proved that (BAD).

    I stated clearly that the hobbyist must do his/her homework and give the correct environment. I have 3 customers that successfully cultivate goniopora's (another so called very difficult coral) REPEATEDLY, Pet Stop visitors would know the small Goniopora's we sometimes have in stock.
    ONE of these guys was hanged on this forum for attempting this and now refuse to even visit this forum, is that for the better of this hobby?

    I want to state clearly THIS IS NOT TO SELL MORE OF THESE CORALS!!!! On the contrary we refuse to sell any fish or coral to a customer that we are not convinced would survive in that customers tank!! they normally go and buy that somewhere else and then we must assist them with either the correct environment or take it off their hands.

    But to categorically say DO NOT BUY or even worse saying THESE DO NOT SURVIVE IN CAPTIVITY (or for extended periods) is again taking it to the extreme and creating this image that people keeping them are mad, money waister's, do not care or even cruel.

    Where do you think all our knowledge of reef corals came from? Hobbyists, and new comers should be warned YES, but not hanged when they attempt something new or different. 99% of new inventions are made by chance! They might just be the inventor of a new product, system or way to make this already brilliant hobby better, easier or cheaper. But with input like this they might never take that step.

    So my message is do not HANG THEM. If you do feel so strong bought it, Rather PM them and make sure you know ALL THE BACK GROUND! Then assist them, not fight them.

    Rather assist those brave soul's in their quest. They might just be the savior of that species and enhance our hobby.
     
  14. vatso

    vatso

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    The site is to share what we have learnt from our own experience good & bad & as we all know no 2 tanks are the same.

    Moolis was just sharing his success & we should rather be trying to learn from this.

    I have huge respect for Hennie & his understanding of reef keeping but things change this hobby is not the same as it was 10 - 15 years ago.
     
  15. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    If that was the message you were trying to get accross, you could have approached it in a slightly better way and not used terms such as
    and
    .

    The facts still remain that these are difficult corals. Keeping them should not be attempted just because three people have had success and one is feeling
    .
     
  16. seank

    seank

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    I agree with Justin on his post. All I am saying is not to tell newbies it is ok to start with these type of coral, as well as almost experienced reefers- it boils down to dedication and mature tanks. I have seen these coral die in my tank- that I bought from Moolis- whether I was still not experienced enough, or the flight was delayed etc, is just another point to state that it is not that easy to keep these type of Coral. Hence my 1 st post in this thread- not to take Moolis on
     
  17. Jaco Schoeman

    Jaco Schoeman MASA Contributor

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    Moolis, I will try and make this as unoffensive as possible, towards you and any other MASA member... Please do not take this as an assualt on you, or others, I am speaking to everyone reading this to be informative.

    Firstly, do you know why a suncoral spawn? Go read my NPS system thread once more, and see what happened with a suncoral that kept on spawning after a very bad shipment experience. Then ask Tiger to post you a photo of that same suncoral about 4 months later, and note the die off and little polyps extension. I had my days trying to save that suncoral, and just managed to pull it through. Sun Coral spawning is nothing "wonderful" really. Some of them spawn each time the flow is switched off- daily I might add. Further research showed that in many cases, the suncoral spawns to ensure survival, as it is feeling threatened, unlike other corals that only spawn in the perfect environment. Just my 2c on the suncoral spawning...

    Then, Cauliflower coral are not the most difficult coral to keep yes, but the untrained eye will not tell the difference between a Cauliflower and a carnation coral; two very different species. Carnation coral shouldn't even be imported IMO, and this is not only my experience, but even dedicated public aquariums and research centres in the US. I can admit that I had one, in a dedicated NPS tank, fed twice a day, and still it died... Are they then so "easy" to keep?

    Dont get me wrong, what myself, hennie and the rest are trying to say is that yes, keeping them is possible, even long term, but 99% of the time the hobbyist is unaware of the intense husbandry that has to go into them. Saying you must feed daily sounds easy enough, but do that for six months on end, cancelling holidays just to be at home to feed these coral etc. There is the challenge.

    Take Vatso for example, I took his head off about buying a suncoral. Last I heard it was doing fine. Well, then I will admit that he has done a good job so-far. But still we need not portray a message to newbies that these are "easy" to keep. NPS coral specifically needs much much more than just a "perfect" system.

    I feel there are many alternatives to consider instead of corals with the like of suns, carnations etc. Unfortunately NPS coral boasts the most vibrant colors in all the coral species, and that makes them so wanted.
     
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  18. Moolis Moolman

    Moolis Moolman Thread Starter Pet Stop SA Sponsor

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    ????

    HI reefers

    The past 2 days was very interesting, not the posts (I expected them) but the emails and phone calls. Before I get to them I need to clarify some aspects posted here.

    Read this whole post before you reply to any aspect of this post PLEASE. This is a plead not an attack, if you feel it was a attack on you PM or call me 082-782 5623

    I would like to make the following statements and clarifications.

    Jaco - you totally forgot to ask how long the sun was in stock. This one that spawned was in stock for 2 months and was actually growing at that stage so your theory is out of the door.

    Then in your PM to me you stated that to get baby sun corals growing is easy if you give them food, because they only know aquarium environment. This is an interesting statement. I would love to hear from other reefers that got there suns to spawn AND got the baby's to grow. Out of all the posts I saw posted on MASA no one ever said getting baby's to grow is easy. I would love to see those statements made in the past, I must have missed them. From now on I am sure every one would love to get aqua cultured suns as they are easier, I doubt it.

    Regarding taking Vatso's head off - that is exsactly what I am talking of, fight with them 1st then afterwords say perhaps I was wrong. You yourself told me that you were totally un prepared for these corals, now it look like you expect every one else to be as un informed as you were when you started with these corals. NO MAN!!!

    Then regarding I posted this post to enable me to sell more of these corals. This is a statement made by people that are ignorant AND not customers of Pet Stop!!!!
    We at Pet Stop is not only in this for the money! We have a policy of 1stly ensuring we understand the customers aquarium setup and his/her feeding & maintenance regime 2condly we informing every customer what we suggest he/she add to their aquarium (existing Customers will tell you of our 5 stages of corals) and lastly we are never afraid to tell a customer what they should not add to their aquarium, even if it boils down to no sale.
    Regarding these specific corals, WE DO NOT ORDER THEM as standard and then if we get them, we ensure they go to a aquarium where they should survive or keep them in the Shop. Selling them to reefers without ensuring that they survive in their aquarium is STUPID!

    Out of the emails and phone calls the following became clear that:
    • SOME OF The negative posts are directed at me and not the topic and some others was directed at marine Pet Shop's in general. My answer to you is the same here that it was to you directly, if you have a scrap with me come and see me or if you do not want to, email my and lets get it resolved. LIFE IS TO SHORT to waist time and energy if it could be resolved. If it are directed to other shops, do it on another thread or state clearly that you do not see PET STOP as part of this post.
    • Lots of MASA members are QUITE because they would rather not say openly what they do, than telling the truth and get a heck of a hiding.
    • They respect the "GURUS" on MASA for there respective knowledge, but at the same time they fear them because doing something out of the beaten path will mean a public humiliation.
    • There are some MASA members thinking of breaking away because of this. You guys that spoke to me and want to break away I would like to repeat my answer in public. YES - I will be active on your site, I am a business man and will be active where I could reach my customers and participate with my fellow reefers. NO - I do not think SA need another reef forum, rather work in this forum to change what you do not like, than going away and dividing the reefers even further.
    • There are real gurus out there (specializing in something specific) that do not participate on MASA, because they differ from very outspoken individuals on MASA and would rather spend their energy furthering their hobby than fighting them here.
    • Normal reefers would rather suffer in silence than post on MASA, because although MASA say no question is a stupid question, answers to these questions do not always reflect the same attitude.
    There are individuals out there that could teach each and every one of us something, but they do not appreciate the attitude of some MASA members that believe it is their way or the highway.

    THE REEFERS THAT DO LOTS OF POSTS AND BELIEVE THEY KNOW MORE THAN MOST OTHER REEFERS. You might know more than most but each and every one of them could be onto something new or have made a break trough that would help you and every other reefer in the future.
     
  19. seank

    seank

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    Agreed Moolis;)
     
  20. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    I must say that I was one of the reefers that was denied a coral by Moolis because he did not think I could keep it alive. I wanted a coral for my nano but Moolis said the light was not enough. He could have made R600 off of me but he did not. Instead he saved me R600 as the coral would have died.
     
  21. Afsal

    Afsal

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    VERY few lfs do that ......
     
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