Using plastic containers in a marine setup

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by FDB, 13 Nov 2009.

  1. FDB

    FDB

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    Hi guys.
    I notice and read conflicting info online.
    On sites, people use large plastic containers as DSB's, Sumps, etc.
    On the same site, they say you should not use plastic containers to host fishes in for longer than a week or two (as a quarantine tank for example) because plastic gives off chemicals when filled with salt water.
    If that is true, why then is it ok to use plastic containers for DSB's, sumps, etc over a very long period?

    Other sites have large plastic tanks to host grow out fish, others use them to keep RO and saltwater in, etc. etc.

    Surely the guys that say plastic is a no-go for marine setups are wrong?
     
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  3. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i use plastic to keep my salt water in, RO and white plastic butcher bins for frags, so far no issues, just make sure its not painted or treated
     
  4. FDB

    FDB Thread Starter

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    Hi there.
    Found this text on a site: Reef Safe Plastics & Leaching (myths&facts) - 3reef Forums
    Credit: infamous 3reef Forums




    This topic came up when someone in my reefclub posted a thread about plastic autotopoff container and which one should be used. Everyone in the reefclub jumped on it suggesting #1 or #2 plastics.

    I decided to do some more research on the topic because i noticed that no one ever gave any other reason why people should use those platics other than that they were food grade plastics and are not recycled . So i did some searching around and realized that people had no idea why they were recommending those types of platics.



    Myth:The higher number on the plastic means its better quality or is more pure.

    Fact: The number on the plastic has nothing to do with the quality or purity. It tells you the chemical makeup of the polymers used in the plastic and the optimal use of that plastic. The number also tells us what that plastic can be recycled into.
    ************************************************** *****


    Myth:#1 and #2 are food grade plastics and are better.

    Fact:Many plastics are food grade plastics. #1, #2, #5, #6 and #7. For example baby bottles are typically made from #7 plastic.
    ************************************************** *****

    Myth:The recycle logo means that the plastic has some recycled material added to it.

    Fact:The logo means that the item can be recycled and number in the middle also tells us what kinds of things that plastic can be recycled to.
    If the item has recycled material, it will say so in print.
    ************************************************** *****


    Myth: Plastics can leach just like any other material.

    Fact:Most plastics don't leach toxic substances. Once the plastic is hard, it only mixes with substance of similar macromolecular structure. Even if you heat it, it still won't mix with water or saltwater. However, some plastics (Namely #1 and #7 plastics) have been known to leach traces of toxic substances when exposed to microwaves or superhot liquids(water,milk etc).
    ************************************************** *****

    You will typically find these logos on plastic containers.
    [​IMG]

    What do the numbers mean and what are those letters at the bottom?


    Number 1 Plastics -- PET or PETE (polyethylene terephthalate)

    * Found In: Soft drinks, water and beer bottles; mouthwash bottles; peanut butter containers; salad dressing and vegetable oil containers; ovenable food trays.
    * Recycling: Pick up through most curbside recycling programs.
    * Recycled Into: Polar fleece, fiber, tote bags, furniture, carpet, paneling, straps, (occasionally) new containers

    It poses low risk of leaching breakdown products. Recycling rates remain relatively low (around 20 percent), though the material is in high demand by remanufacturers.

    Number 2 Plastics -- HDPE (high density polyethylene)

    * Found In: Milk jugs, juice bottles; bleach, detergent and household cleaner bottles; shampoo bottles; some trash and shopping bags; motor oil bottles; butter and yogurt tubs; cereal box liners
    * Recycling: Pick up through most curbside recycling programs, although some only allow those containers with necks.
    * Recycled Into: Laundry detergent bottles, oil bottles, pens, recycling containers, floor tile, drainage pipe, lumber, benches, doghouses, picnic tables, fencing

    HDPE carries low risk of leaching and is readily recyclable into many goods.

    Number 3 Plastics -- V (Vinyl) or PVC

    * Found In: Window cleaner and detergent bottles, shampoo bottles, cooking oil bottles, clear food packaging, wire jacketing, medical equipment, siding, windows, piping
    * Recycling: Rarely recycled; accepted by some plastic lumber makers.
    * Recycled Into: Decks, paneling, mudflaps, roadway gutters, flooring, cables, speed bumps, mats

    PVC contains chlorine, so its manufacture can release highly dangerous dioxins. If you must cook with PVC, don't let the plastic touch food. Never burn PVC, because it releases toxins.

    Number 4 Plastics -- LDPE (low density polyethylene)

    * Found In: Squeezable bottles; bread, frozen food, dry cleaning and shopping bags; tote bags; clothing; furniture; carpet
    * Recycling: LDPE is not often recycled through curbside programs, but some communities will accept it. Plastic shopping bags can be returned to many stores for recycling.
    * Recycled Into: Trash can liners and cans, compost bins, shipping envelopes, paneling, lumber, landscaping ties, floor tile

    Historically, LDPE has not been accepted through most American curbside recycling programs, but more and more communities are starting to accept it.

    Number 5 Plastics -- PP (polypropylene)

    * Found In: Some yogurt containers, syrup bottles, ketchup bottles, caps, straws, medicine bottles
    * Recycling: Number 5 plastics can be recycled through some curbside programs.
    * Recycled Into: Signal lights, battery cables, brooms, brushes, auto battery cases, ice scrapers, landscape borders, bicycle racks, rakes, bins, pallets, trays

    Polypropylene has a high melting point, and so is often chosen for containers that must accept hot liquid. It is gradually becoming more accepted by recyclers.

    Number 6 Plastics -- PS (polystyrene)

    * Found In: Disposable plates and cups, meat trays, egg cartons, carry-out containers, aspirin bottles, compact disc cases
    * Recycling: Number 6 plastics can be recycled through some curbside programs.
    * Recycled Into: Insulation, light switch plates, egg cartons, vents, rulers, foam packing, carry-out containers

    Polystyrene can be made into rigid or foam products -- in the latter case it is popularly known as the trademark Styrofoam. Evidence suggests polystyrene can leach potential toxins into foods. The material was long on environmentalists' hit lists for dispersing widely across the landscape, and for being notoriously difficult to recycle.

    Number 7 Plastics -- Miscellaneous

    * Found In: Three- and five-gallon water bottles, 'bullet-proof' materials, sunglasses, DVDs, iPod and computer cases, signs and displays, certain food containers, nylon
    * Recycling: Number 7 plastics have traditionally not been recycled, though some curbside programs now take them.
    * Recycled Into: Plastic lumber, custom-made products


    So which plastics leach and which are safe to use in reef tanks?
    I have found some aricles that could shed more light on this subject.

    I will start posting interesting articles on this thread as i find them.

    First interesting article i found on Trusted.MD

    Which plastic water bottles don't leach chemicals?

    To be certain that you are choosing a bottle that does not leach, check the recycling symbol on your bottle. If it is a #2 HDPE (high density polyethylene), or a #4 LDPE (low density polyethylene), or a #5 PP (polypropylene), your bottle is fine. The type of plastic bottle in which water is usually sold is usually a #1, and is only recommended for one time use. Do not refill it. Better to use a reusable water bottle, and fill it with your own filtered water from home and keep these single-use bottles out of the landfill.

    Unfortunately, those fabulous colourful hard plastic lexan bottles made with polycarbonate plastics and identified by the #7 recycling symbol, may leach BPA. Bisphenol A is a xenoestrogen, a known endocrine disruptor, meaning it disturbs the hormonal messaging in our bodies. Synthetic xenoestrogens are linked to breast cancer and uterine cancer in women, decreased testosterone levels in men, and are particularly devastating to babies and young children. BPA has even been linked to insulin resistance and Type 2 Diabetes

    most plastic baby bottles and drinking cups are made with plastics containing Bisphenol A. In 2006 Europe banned all products made for children under age 3 containing BPA, and as of Dec. 2006 the city of San Franscisco followed suit. In March 2007 a billion-dollar class action suit was commenced against Gerber, Playtex, Evenflo, Avent, and Dr. Brown's in Los Angeles superior court for harm done to babies caused by drinking out of baby bottles and sippy cups containing BPA. So, to be certain that your baby is not exposed, use glass bottles.

    Article written by Vreni Gurd
    Bachelor of Physical and Health Education, High Honours
    Holistic Lifestyle Consultant, Level 2, Chek Insitute
    Corrective Holistic Exercise Kinesiologist Level 3, Chek Institute
    Certified Exercise Physiologist, Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology (CSEP)

    Degrees
    BPHE, HLC 2, CHEK 3, CSEP-CEP, NSCA, ACSM

    __________________________________________________ _
    __________________________________________________ __


    Second article published in Scientific American.
    Written by David Biello
    Published - February 19, 2008

    Food Containers Leach a Potentially Harmful Chemical

    Bisphenol A (BPA) is a ubiquitous compound in plastics. First synthesized in 1891, the chemical has become a key building block of plastics from polycarbonate to polyester; in the U.S. alone more than 2.3 billion pounds (1.04 million metric tons) of the stuff is manufactured annually.

    BPA is routinely used to line cans to prevent corrosion and food contamination; it also makes plastic cups and baby and other bottles transparent and shatterproof. When the polycarbonate plastics and epoxy resins made from the chemical are exposed to hot liquids, BPA leaches out 55 times faster than it does under normal conditions, according to a new study by Scott Belcher, an endocrine biologist at the University of Cincinnati. "When we added boiling water [to bottles made from polycarbonate] and allowed it to cool, the rate [of leakage] was greatly increased," he says, to a level as high as 32 nanograms per hour.

    "It is the unborn baby and children that investigators are most worried about," Newbold says, noting that BPA was linked to increased breast and prostate cancer occurrences, altered menstrual cycles and diabetes in lab mice that were still developing.

    Fred vom Saal, a reproductive biologist at the University of Missouri–Columbia, warns that babies likely face the "highest exposure" in human populations, because both baby bottles and infant formula cans likely leach BPA. "In animal studies, the levels that cause harm happen at 10 times below what is common in the U.S." says vom Saal, who also headed the NIH panel that concluded the chemical may pose risks to humans.


    "Based on the studies reviewed by FDA, adverse effects occur in animals only at levels of BPA that are far higher orders of magnitude than those to which infants or adults are exposed," says FDA spokeswoman Stephanie Kwisnek. "Therefore, FDA sees no reason to ban or otherwise restrict the uses now authorized at this time."

    A new E.U. law (Registration, Evaluation, Authorization and Restriction of Chemical Substances, or REACH), which took effect last year, requires that chemicals, such as BPA, be proved safe. Currently, though, it continues to be used in Europe; the EFSA last year found no reason for alarm based on rodent studies. European scientists cited multigenerational rat studies as reassuring and noted that mouse studies may be flawed because the tiny rodent is more susceptible to estrogens.

    For now, U.S. scientists with concerns about BPA recommend that anyone sharing those worries avoid using products made from it: Polycarbonate plastic is clear or colored and typically marked with a number 7 on the bottom, and canned foods such as soups can be purchased in cardboard cartons instead.

    __________________________________________________ __
    __________________________________________________ __


    Third article i found was about
    Number 1 Plastics -- PET or PETE (polyethylene terephthalate)

    Very detailed article written by many scientists - 31 July 2007

    Antimony leaching from polyethylene terephthalate (PET) plastic

    Please click on the link for the full pdf article

    Great article about Antimony leaching from #1 Plastics and the effect of pH, temperature, and interactions with calcium and magnesium

    Antimony is a regulated contaminant that poses both acute and chronic health effects in drinking water......

    Written by
    Paul Westerhoffa
    Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Arizona State University

    Panjai Prapaipong
    School of Earth and Space Exploration, Arizona State University

    Everett Shock
    Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry, Arizona State University

    Alice Hillaireaud
    Traitement des Eaux et des Nuisances, University of Poitiers, Poitiers, France


    __________________________________________________ ____
    __________________________________________________ ____

    Fourh Atricle

    More Evidence That BPA Found In Clear Plastics Impairs Brain Function
    Neurology / Neuroscience

    Yale School of Medicine researchers reported that the chemical bisphenol-A (BPA), a building block for polycarbonate plastics found in common household items, causes the loss of connections between brain cells. This synaptic loss may cause memory/learning impairments and depression, according to study results published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).

    Unlike previous studies that looked at the effect of BPA on rodents, the team examined the effects in a primate model. They also used lower levels of the chemical than in past studies. "Our goal was to more closely mimic the slow and continuous conditions under which humans would normally be exposed to BPA," said study author Csaba Leranth, M.D., professor in the Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology & Reproductive Sciences and in Neurobiology at Yale. "As a result, this study is more indicative than past research of how BPA may actually affect humans."

    Over a 28-day period, Leranth and his team gave each primate 50 micrograms/kg of BPA per day, adjusted for body weight, the amount considered safe for human consumption by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The team also administered estradiol, the major form of hormonal estrogen that modulates nerve cell connections in the brain. Best known as one of the principal hormone products of the ovary, estrogen has also been shown in past studies to be synthesized in the brain, where it aids the development and function of the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex.

    The team then used an electron microscope to count nerve cell connections in the brain. They found that BPA inhibits creation of the synaptic connections in the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex, areas of the brain involved with regulation of mood and formation of memory.

    "Our primate model indicates that BPA could negatively affect brain function in humans," said study co-author Tibor Hajszan, M.D., associate research scientist in Yale Ob/Gyn. "Based on these new findings, we think the EPA may wish to consider lowering its 'safe daily limit' for human BPA consumption."

    Hajszan said that although daily exposure of an average person to BPA usually does not reach the level that was applied in this study, human exposure to BPA is not limited to a single month, but rather is continuous over a lifetime. "The negative effect of BPA may also be amplified when estradiol levels are naturally lower than in healthy adults. That is why exposure to BPA may particularly be risky in the case of babies and the elderly."

    Other authors on the study included Klara Szigeti-Buck, Jeremy Bober and Neil J. MacLusky.

    The study was supported by the National Institutes of Health and by a National Alliance for Research on Schizophrenia and Depression Young Investigator Award

    My Conclusion
    After reading many articles and doing research i came to the conclusion that the presence of BPA in trace amouts is ok for adults. If you want to be on the safe side, do not reuse #1 plastics and do not expose #7 plastics to high heat. I also want to say that this is just my personal opinion.

    Hope you gained some knowledge on this topic. If there is anything in here that is incorrect or needs to be adressed. Please feel free to do so.
    Thanks.
     
  5. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    lucky we dont use microwaves or hot water in reefs :)
     
  6. Midasblenny

    Midasblenny

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    very interesting, thank-you FDP
     
  7. FDB

    FDB Thread Starter

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    "lucky we dont use microwaves or hot water in reef"
    or any other nuclear or cold fusion powered skimmers.
    he he he he..

    "very interesting, thank-you FDP"
    You welcome DimasNlebby.
    :)
     
  8. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

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    OK, my question following the advice to not re-use #1 bottles.

    A lot of reefers use it and it's featured in a lot of reef books as well where plastic coke bottles are used to breed brine shrimp and make a green water culture for phytoplankton and rotifiers etc. Are these now a no no?
     
  9. FDB

    FDB Thread Starter

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    I think basically what is said is that plastic containers that are new, that are cleaned properly are ok for marine use.
    It seems that you have to physically mess with the molecular structure for plastic to release molecules into water (Microwave or overheat/melt)

    The article qoutes plastic that may leak chemicals into containers used for food, mainly because of our habits to microwave food/drink in a container.

    So basically, try and buy food grade plastic, but it seems as if most plastic containers are fine at 25-28 degrees with saltwater in them.

    Well. That is how i understand it.

    I have just changed my DSB and Sump with two 85L plastic containers.. Will let you know if i pick up anything different.
     
  10. sunburst

    sunburst

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    Thanks FDB. Great read. I use HDPE as a sump. No issues
     
  11. FDB

    FDB Thread Starter

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    You welcome.
    I don't think plastic is an issue at all.
    You get Acrylic tanks, people store massive amounts of Salted RO water in plastic all the time, the use of plastic for Sumps are widespread, etc.

    I'm actually considering rather making my breeding tanks plastic too (R290 for 160L and R180 for 100L..) i will make my growout tanks plastic.

    But we shall see.
     
  12. Midasblenny

    Midasblenny

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    You welcome DimasNlebby.
    :)[/quote]


    Haha, dimasnlebby, thats a new one!
     
  13. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    WOW! Very interesting article! Nice find.... thanks for sharing with us.
     
  14. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Cool, my lunchbox is type 5 plastic. So I should not go sterile...
     
  15. Orson

    Orson

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    hi, according to the UK's Practcal Fish Keeping years ago, you can use food grade plastic products with marine water. In the UK beer brewing buckets seam to be popular - look like the large old nappy buckets that were popular befor disposables took over years ago. Some coloured plastics can leach chemicals into the water so they are best avoided. I believe is the dye that leaches out in salt water.
    I use clear plastic catering industry buckets from Makro and I've had no problems. Keep to white or clear plastic to be safe.
    If memory serves me correctly PFKs Nick Darkin once suggested to treat PVC piping (which again certain types can leach chemicals) soak the piping in salt water for several days, change the water and repeat several times (I stand corrected but I think he said at least 3 times). You can use dish washer salt to make a concentrated saline solution if you don't want to throw away marine salt water.

    Its worked for me.
     
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