The right advice for the right situation.

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by leslie hempel, 11 Jan 2012.

  1. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Guys this is a difficult topic as we are all well intentioned individuals and want the best for our fellow reefers starting out

    BUT

    i cannot see the sence in trying to advise a student for EG to purchase a expensive piece of equipment when they cannot comprehend its importance and they will certainly not understand why they are able to get a simular product "cheaper" (jebo, boyu you get) my drift.

    maybe the question was asked in the wrong manner but we need to assess the situation and go with what is needed as a minimum and then build on it from there..

    i am the first person to promote the use of an oversized skimmer for eg on the smallest of tanks, its my belief that it is extreemly important to have one rated at least double the total system capacity.. but if i cant afford a top end skimmer i will be looking at something in my price range that claims to do a simular capacity

    now

    is there not a way we can get these ridiculous skimmers off the market?
    i still see people being conned into buying jebo's and it will continue to happen untill somebody puts a regulation in place..

    i dont want to make the hobby unaffordable but i would like to see the right product correctly specified for the correct volume and intended purpose..

    there must be something we can do

    thoughs comments welcome...
     
    lanzo, Marine1 and KeeganP like this.
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  3. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I wish we could burn them all!

    When I Started the LFS tried selling me a Jebo.... along with alont of other bad advice.
    I asked on the forums and could not understand why everyone kept telling me to buy a quality skimmer.
    In the end i ended up buying a second hand (Tunze 9010) Blind luck was on my side. I learnt the value of a good skimmer!
     
  4. KeeganP

    KeeganP

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    Les you need a skimmer :tt2:

    Or a Aqua Medic Blue reef :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Jan 2012
  5. LCornelius

    LCornelius Moderator

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    Hi Leslie,

    Good post.

    Well I don't think this stops at skimmers, but is a very large topic.

    This is not a cheap hobby, and if you don't have the means to support your tank then you should stick to fresh water.

    I have learn't the hard way, cheap equipment leads to allot of problems.
    You can buy cheap equipment and get away with if, but if you want to go large and want to have a good looking reef you need to put out the $

    I do feel that it is everyone's right to have a marine tank (If you want one), rather go smaller and buy decent equipment than go large with cheap equipment.
     
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  6. Yuri

    Yuri

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    I always buy the biggest stuff so that I can still use it for future upgrades
     
  7. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    This is one of my big concerns at the moment and I see it happening all the time. I don't know if it's bragging rights coming to the forefront or what, but when someone says they can't afford an expensive skimmer and need help to find the cheapest decent one, then surely our function should be to help them? All too often I see guys start recommending skimmers that cost thousands and thousands of Rands, we're not helping by doing that, all we're doing is making the person totally despondent. Dig deeper and try and help the guy, recommend cheap ways of going about it, don't always recommend the top of the range most expensive equipment, there are always cheaper ways to do things, all we're doing is scaring people off. I started my marine experience with a R500 tank, rusty stand and a Jebo skimmer and I absolutely loved it. Today, I have a 4ft tank and 3ft tank connected together running off a 2ft sump with NO skimmer and no DSB, this system houses about 15 Anemone's, various fish, rics, kenya trees etc. NO skimmer. What I'm trying to say is there are MANY different ways to skin this cat, if someone can't afford something, then it's quite possible they can do without it for a good few months while they save up.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2012
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  8. Yuri

    Yuri

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    I think it is our responsibility to give the best to the live stock that are taken from the ocean .Thy are live animals !
    To have a skimmer in my opinion will give better water quality and that will be better for the live stock
     
  9. Tremayn

    Tremayn

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    Lately I have seen guys recommending vertex and BB skimmers.. lol but the person never said he is on a budget. People need to be a little more clear to what they want eg best value skimmer for R2000, then obviously the guys here would recommend a second hand TS skimmer
     
  10. Adee

    Adee

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    Consumers of the "reefing hobby" fall into differnet income brackets, either low income, middle income or high income brackets.

    Face facts, that economics.

    A typical business man, would want to stock goods that covers all three. Invariably people also move from the low to the higher. A student, will one day get a job and hopefully have a successful career and become an descent income earner. If the barrier to entry into this hobby is cost, the best way to then get the would be reefer addicted, would be to throw him that Jebo. As the addiction grows, money does not become an option and the proverbial upgrade happens. During the period he has gained (hopefully) wisdom and learnt the errors of his ways.

    If I look some 10 years back I too starterd on one of those dismal skimmers on my 1000L system. I did not take the advice as I did not comprehend at all why there was such a massive price difference...anyways, 3-4 years later....advice given before hand, slowly started unfolding. Yep, eventually paid thru your wallet with stock dying endless algae problems, etc....however my system ticked along (just barely)....until I could afford that skimmer that I wanted. Through all of that was still able to keep a marine tank.

    Point is, if you cut the market with "cheap" goods, you stand the chance of blocking new entrants to this hobby. What should be offered though is advice such as spend money on your sump kit in terms of what you can afford, then build the tank size that will work comfortably with that hardware. Too often it's the tank first...everything else is secondary. This I believe is where most of us went on the wrong path.
     
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  11. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    This hobby got two primary types of reefers. Those with thick wallets, and those with credit cards in the red and you sent a silent prayer up that it must just work when you us it. Please, Please Please oh Please, just let it go through.

    But yes, I do agree. some equipment are primary bought for the bragging rights, like those red bling bling skimmers. That totally falls outside the capability of my wallet (2 guesses as to which group I fall in).

    And this does not only apply to skimmers. Circulation pumps for example. From SunSun to Vortech. R300 to R4800. They do after all the same basic job. But how they do it does differ substantially.

    Why promote Vortech to a newbie? They guy only started out in this hobby. And a sad fact is that a lot of guys drop out between 6 months to a year due to costs mostly. Unless you are checking the for sale threads for secondhand top end products, wishing every day another newbie gave up. Picking up "bargains".

    Yes sure, I know you cannot compare a SunSun against a Vortech MP40. Its like comparing a VW Beetle (1975) against a BMW M3 (2011). But with both I can drive down to the coast. Its how you get there that is different. And with cars, we all did start small. And upgraded during life as we could (well I did).
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2012
  12. Marine1

    Marine1

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    I will rather take the VW
     
  13. Mc

    Mc

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    :lol:

    I think it also depends what you want to keep. I was told I would have to replace the standard skimmer that comes with the boyu TL550 and although I would love to I just haven't had the cash and although it isn't great my livestock is doing great, ok the only sps I have is a pavona but with alot of water changes it works just fine.
     
  14. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Adee, that is so right.

    Can add a bit more. First thing is, you have to decide what you want to keep. Fish only, softies or a full blown SPS system. Everything is different. From lightning to circulation to filtration. Only constant is the glass box.

    So where should the PLANNING start?
     
  15. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    some excellent points made, what i am saying in general is that you need to assess the reefers level of expertise, spending ability..

    if hes go cash and he wants the best he will ask for it, if hes on a budget you will see this in how he goes about getting his filtration together etc.. im asking the guys here to read the person and adjust not the advice but the cost of the item advised. the principals of filtration stay the same irrespective of the cost, there are just some of us who dont want a DIY look or logic says its cheaper to buy new than try make..

    i hope im getting the message across..

    ps i type in the dark so if my spelling sux sue me :tt2:
     
  16. Kunhardt

    Kunhardt

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    Nicely written Adrian!


    yes your spelling does suck! ;)
     
  17. magman

    magman

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    I think if you want to make the person's budget an issue, you must first access their interest for this hobby.

    When I first started, I was very passionate, as I always wanted to do marines, I did not just want a little nano with a nemo in, I wanted the full reef. When I started, I was not a member, but I really wish there was somebody there to advise me to rather save money for two months or so, instead of buying a kak budget skimmer. It cost me lots more money and time by hasseling with cheap skimmers, cheap lights etc. I think it set me back mush more in the long run by going budget.

    If somebody ask's me advice on what skimmer is best, I will always say the SRO BB range, if they say it is out of their budget, I will tell them to save and buy a second hand one. I will tell them this, because from my experience, this is what I learnt and what I would of change if I restarted.

    On the other hand, if someone wants just a 4 foot tank, a few fish only, does not mind a bit of green, then I feel it would be a differant issue.

    I think someone asking what skimmer to buy, might not know the differance between an sps and a tubeworm, but before we can advice them on skimmers budget etc, we first need to access what they want to do with the hobby and where they want to go with it.
     
  18. Kunhardt

    Kunhardt

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    I think in a lot of cases its one of 2 things...they dont take the time to find out about the persons system or they are inexperienced themselves and just rattle off big names that they have heard being used and think that these items are the be all and end all for all system types and sizes.

    An example of the above is, I remember a thread a little while back that really annoyed me...someone new to the forum was asking for help with their system and it came up that he had a TS2...everyone was on his case about how useless the skimmer was and it was going to do no good for his tank and he needed something much better...3000L skimmer names were bandied about...apon reading all this I asked what size his tank was only to find out that he only had a 200L system...there is nothing wrong with a TS2 on a 200L tank, but in over a page and a half not one person had bothered to ask how big his tank was...I would think if you are going to give advice about skimmers you should at least know a small detail like tank size. :)
     
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  19. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    yep we have the willingness to help now we need to offer quality advice, which is what differentiates us from a bad LFS (and no that is not a dig at any of the sponsors on here bla bla bla yada yada)



    :tt2:
     
  20. saaid

    saaid

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    I'll be the first to say that there is only a handful of people (mainly the mods) that throw name brands around and you back each other up because you are supposed to be the guys with the know how.

    I myself mix things up, buy a few "cheap" and cheerful then a big purchase next time round. When I received my infraction I'm sure that "guy" didn't even read it properly as he thought I went out and purchased 12 lights and was going to run them all (actually mentioned 13 lights so he cant count and I only purchased 5 extra which were the preferred brand).

    I was previously running 8 of them and needed a new look but nobody bothered to ask how what or where. I didn't even bother to explain that I was by no means going to run all 10 at once, only eight but switching between 2 extra ones for color variation.

    All I saw was cheap and that threw me off big time. There is a lot of people out there using the cheaper brands as it fits in there budget. As that word cheap is mentioned it would turn people away from the hobby and I myself was so hesitant to ask anything again. I rather just do what belinda does and Google my eyes out.
     
  21. Singularity

    Singularity Hmmm amper!

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    well reef octopus is one of the "cheeper" chinese brands, and it is recommended by alot of people because of the value for money... just an example.
     
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