The Maze Sump

Discussion in 'Biological/Natural Filtration and Deep Sand Beds' started by lappiesreef, 18 Mar 2009.

  1. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef

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    I was contemplating a new sump and I thought this idea might be good...
    See what you guys think..

    I want Lanzo to try it if he can on one of his tanks. Then we cn compare it's performance to a similar system with the normal type sumps.

    So pics first then I'll explain since I'm sure my drawings only make sense in my head ;)
     
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  3. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    Side view of the sump

    [​IMG]
     
  4. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    Top view of the sump

    [​IMG]
     
  5. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    I was thinking in microbiological terms.

    By simply turning the normal single chamber DSB into a maze design we can increase contact time between the tanks water and the denitrifying bacteria.
    This should increase the nirtate amounts that can be processed. Especially since now the turn over rate between DT and sump doesn't play that big a role.

    Also the different nutrient zones that will be created should increase the availible niches for colonization improving the overall performance..
     
  6. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    The ATS on the beginning sprung from the ATS's recently described on the forum..
    I think mudshark's stick in my head since it is so neat..

    In this design the screen can by hung in the first chamber next to the tank. The screen can be fed by utilizing the fountain effect from the over flow or a small pump.
    The skimmer can also be fed from this chamber to sort out most of the solid waste coming from the tank and ATS.
     
  7. Alan

    Alan Admin MASA Contributor

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    I like the idea as you would certainly get good flow over the DSB.
     
  8. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    The bio'ball chamber that follows prevents any algae from the ATS clogging the DSB but most importantly it creates nitrates to feed the DSB by aerobic becterial action.

    The nice thing here as well is that the aerobic bacteria deplete the high oxigen levels in the water created by the Skimmer allowing anaerobic conditions to form faster in the DSB.
     
  9. moz

    moz

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    The idea could work, the idea (Mixing Race) is sometimes used in Water Treatment Works for chlorination as the water is contact with the chlorine for longer. You should also take into account that the velocity of the water will be greater which could disturb the DSB.
     
  10. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    The Maze DSB then max the contact time between tank water and the anearobic bacteria. This should remove most of the nitrates but will also process allot of organics in the water..

    The chemical chamber that follows is for stuff like purigen. Since the water is already highly processed the media's used in this chamber will last allot longer...

    Lastly a simple return chamber :)

    So am I making sense?

    What you think Lanzo still up ot give this a try? Even if we skip the ATS part ;)
     
  11. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    Yes Moz that could definately happen.
    Playing with the diameter of the maze legs may be needed..

    In my current sump the flow rate over my DSB is around 10 000l/h. It also disturbed the DSB a bit. I simply layered the DSB to have coarse sand ontop. Quick fix..
     
  12. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I like this idea
     
  13. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

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    The turnover is way too fast over the DSB. It needs to 3 -5 times the tank volume. Meaning if you have a 500litre system, then taking into account headloss and friction from elbows etc, you need a return pump of about 2500-3000LPH. So if you loose 500-1000LPH due to headloss, you'll have 4 x your tank volume over the DSB per hour. This is just a rough calculation. The reason for the slow turnover is for any loose particles and detritus to be removed more sufficiently by the skimmer, for it to settle on the DSB should it miss the skimmer, and for the natural nitrate reduction to be more effective as well ;)
    You want fast and lots of flow INSIDE the tank for the corals, not over the DSB.
     
  14. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    not wanting to hijack this thread at all, but is the 4times your tank volume across your DSB rule the optimal in terms of the DSB or it terms of the skimmer....???... If one runs a ATS should this turnover be increased?
     
  15. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    the best neil is to have flow that doesnt disturb your sand, and allows sediment to just settle, well my 2c
     
  16. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    No probes. Do you mean the turn over on the ATS?
    If so I don't think so. On the ATS you want slow flow.

    On the exact calculations for DSB flow rate I am a tad sceptical. Obviously you can't go extreme since you won't be able to form the anaerobic conditions needed, but I think it is very flexible as long as anaerobic condition can form.

    On my tank and current sump my nitrate levels are mostly 0. Even with the set backs I had...
    But my DSB is in the region of 4ft. So there is still good contact time.
     
  17. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i was thinking more along the lines of
    what is the flow (and i know it will deffer in each system) that would give the best skimming results, while still leaving "food for the ATS" and still letting the DSB do its job.... I think i am opening up a hornets nest here .... each component has its place, seems to me this baffle idea could speed up your flow across the DSB while still allowing optimal time in the skimmer compartment ..... Fully understand the need for an anaerobic environment, but that would not occur in the water column surely ! that happens in the DSB..... if we could get the water to flow over the DSB for longer (but not too fast as to disturb the sand bed then surely it would be a more effective filtration due to the contact time????
     
  18. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    not such an issue with the baffles, as the flow is laminar the speed across the top will keep enuff water in the dsb, i would however make it 15-18cm though
     
  19. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    Yes the anaerobic env is not in the water column, but of the flow rate over the DSB is too fast it will push fresh water into the lower levels affecting the anaerobic env..
    Thats all I wanted to get at there..

    So yes longer contact time with the right flow rate should result in mroe effective filtration..

    On the dynamics of how they will affect each other in terms of "using up each others food" is debateable. I feel that since we are working in semi closed systems there will be a balance formed. If the ATS and DSB takes care of everything the skimmer will skim off less. Or if the skimmers skims off everything then the ATS won;t grow as fast ect... All in all you end up with clean water going back to the DT..
     
  20. lappiesreef

    lappiesreef Thread Starter

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    Hey Dallas that sounds like a good dimention (15 cm). I had 10 cm in mind initially.
     
  21. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    with 15cm or 18cm, they flow wont reach to far down the sand column, thus not disturbing the bacteria to much
     
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