The disease thread, share your experiences and results

Discussion in 'Marine Fish Discussions' started by magman, 10 Dec 2010.

  1. magman

    magman

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    I have had a bad problem with disease/parasites/brooke and the usual unwanteds in my system the last few months, all from one fish, I lost a lot of livestock and I thought I would share some of the lessons I have learnt, hopefully we can post our solutions on here, and we got a thread to go through for research. Also what you do know, like some of the facts and myths of the crypt/ick/white spot curse. I will share what I know, either from personal experience or research into the early hours of the morning, if your opinion differs, please share, hopefully we can all help fight these diseases. I just found making a decision was the hardest, and I waisted time doing it from being undecided.

    Brooke

    I did not have such a severe outbreak as most cases, mine took days but it was defiantly brooke, it hit my allards clown first, then yellowtail damsel, then the rest, it took them like 7-10 days to perish (it’s usually a day or two). I wrote to wet web with pics, they said it is crypt, I took their word but did still not believe them, I thought if it was crypt, the tangs and angels would surely be the worst with crypt, and why was my clowns and damsels being affected the worst. My fault was being undecided, and not knowing wether to QT or not, hence while thinking I lost all my clowns basically, it hit them one after the other. Then I thought let me QT all my fish, for everything. I got some true percs from a friend a few days before the qt process, as I wanted them in QT with the other fish. They were in my DT for 2 days and were so severe. I took them and gave them a formalin bath and then into a Paraguard bath with the other fish, and then into cupramine. After this now, they had proper white spot/crypt, I should never of believed wet web, but they fine now and are 100%. They been in paraguard, for a week, and now cupramine for the last 3 weeks, today I lowered the cupramine levels to .25, and I started dosing prazipro.

    Pics of my fish before qt, the allard in the pic was in an RO bath, just before it died, as at this stage, flukes were still a possibility after treating the DT for them for the fw dip was to look for flukes.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. AdS Guest




    to hide all adverts.
  3. magman

    magman Thread Starter

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    I have still had a problem with Crypt also, and a few parasites hassling my emperor, and other fish, I want my fish totally crypt free, so I started the QT process with the aim of being able to add a quarantined powder blue, and still not have a spot

    What I have researched and believe

    Facts
    There is only 3 things that will kill white spot (none of them are reef safe!!!)
    1) Copper treatments,
    2) Water Change’s, in buckets and transferring the fish twice daily to a new bucket, before the fish have time to be infected again, and leaving them behind looking for a host.
    3) Break down of generics (not adding a new fish in 11 months that carries a new strain, the crypt will breed itself out)


    Myths
    1) Garlic, does nothing, it does help to entice the fish to eat, and eating build it’s immunity up, but unfortunately the fish is still infected, and it does not show the symptoms
    2) Reefsafe meds, these are a waste of money, they may hide the symptoms, but in order to kill the crypt, you need to nuke them. (imo turning the skimmer off to add these meds is far worse as a drop in your water quality is much more stress, especially in stocked tanks. Also lots of fish will have spot for 3-5 days after a new introduction, or if they just purchased, but they recover after 3-5 days, and you think or believe it is the reef safe meds you added, it is not, it is just the fish is not showing the symptoms, because it is not so severe.
    3) Hypo (to some extent) I know Ushaka they reckon there is strains that are resistant to any salinity.

    With the copper treatments, I have been using seachem cupramine, it is by far the safest copper based med to use, you run it at 0.5, some copper sensitive fish will only start being poisoned at 0.8, and with a good copper test kit, it can easily be managed. The only problem is the seachem test kit is very hard to read. I have heard the red sea test kit is better, but it reads upto 0.5 only. I know Achilles recommends the Seachem Paraguard, I was using it until I ran out, so had to switch to copper pending my order arriving.
    When I started with Cupramine, I halved the dosage that was recommended, and I doubled the dosage time, as I preferred to acclimatise the fish to copper until it reached the .5 level, as I did not want the fish to stop eating, as is the case with lots of copper treatments. I know copper is not effective for some strains of flukes, but apparently prazipro can be dosed with copper.
    For crypt the level must be kept above 0.25, for it to have effects of certain flukes, it must be kept above 0.4 and 0.5

     
  4. magman

    magman Thread Starter

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    Flukes,

    most commen signs are the cloudy eyes and bad scratching, sometimes you can see the flukes on the fish, (cloudy eyes can also be a sign of toxins in the water)

    Best treatment is Prazipro, very effective, the best by far, but unfortunatly it must be imported, but it is totally reefsafe, except you have to turn the skimmer off for about 10 days, and imo not the best thing to do for stressed fish. You can use the Praziquantel localy, but I don't know the doses etc.

    If the fish is severe, give it a short FW dip, for no longer than 2-3 minutes, you only want to add relief, if you dip for longer, and you kill all the flukes, you risk more harm to the fish from secondry infections in the bite holes, some cases it looks like the fish is bleeding to death.

    Dipping is not the solution though, as the flukes lay eggs every 3-5 days, so treatment is better, as you will be able to break the egg cycle.

    If you cannot get prazipro, and you are ready for QT, use a med called Parasite clear, made by "Jungle" Tank buddies". It is a bath water med, but works great for our marines in QT. They are massive tablets that you chuck in, and they fizz like disprin for a few minutes, I think it was 1 tablet to 40 litres, and you dose every 3 day.

    Copper is not effective against all types of flukes, there is two kinds, egg laying also, for most, copper levels must be run at 0.4 to 0.5 and must be run for a month (too high and too long imo).

    I have seen from international forums, that copper and prazi pro can be mixed, ( I am doing the same now from today, and it looks like the fish are happier, as they in a lower copper level)
     
  5. magman

    magman Thread Starter

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    Lymph (I don't know how to spell the proper name, I think it's lymphcytis)

    More commen with larger angels, looks like white little warts on the tips of the fins (mainly on the fins) don't stress though as it goes with good water quality after a month or two, it is only viral, I believe it can lead to scarring though in severe cases. I don't think it leads to death[​IMG]
     
  6. amalick

    amalick

    Joined:
    22 Nov 2008
    Posts:
    1,185
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Cape Town
    QT is the best remedy

    IMOH I still beleive the best remedy is : QT, Qt, QT !!!!!!

    Prevention is always better than a cure. And even if it cant be prevented how wonderfull isnt it to treat a single fish in isolation than to stress about your entire system.

    I have spent a lot of money on my QT, but still far less than trying to medicate my entire system for instance. Skimmer, UV, Ozone, Flow Pumps,Lighting etc.. and I keep it alive constantly by doing 50% water changes with my old DT water

    I have lost a few new fish in QT as a result of them not liking a bare bottom system with no life in it, but I quickly get over it, because the ones that make it through become wonderfull safe additions to my healthy system. Then again I have also cured just as many of desease in QT.
     
  7. magman

    magman Thread Starter

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    I agree 100%, I learnt the hardway about 3-4 months ago, and am still now paying for it


    My QT is a 4 foot tank, with a 3 foot sump, return pump is a 3000lph with the feed above the surface to create oxygen, and a 5000lph powerhead pointing up to create surface diffusion.
    Bare bottom with a few 10 cm plastic pipe cutoffs to create hiding spots.
    30 mins after every feed, I siphon out left over food and do a 10% w/c, every 2nd or 3rd day I do a 50% w/c and redose the meds I am dosing.
     
  8. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

    Joined:
    7 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    8,384
    Likes Received:
    286
    Location:
    Joe's Mountain
    @Magman i disagree with the theory of FW dips for less than 5 minutes due to fish bleeding.

    Thought, Will the fluke incurred injury "bleed" more by having the fluke attached to the fish or by its removal?

    I think what you have to determine is what the fluke is actually doing to the fish by feeding of the epithelium. Once this is understood a decision can be taken into the form of parasite release. IMO and experience the parasite will cause more bleeding by it's feeding, than the bleeding by the open wound. Hmm.. I recall this been mentioned somewhere in either Noga or Bassleer a while back. Will check it out.

    But yes one has to treat for secondary infections.
     
  9. amalick

    amalick

    Joined:
    22 Nov 2008
    Posts:
    1,185
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Cape Town
    FW dips do work

    I concur, because I managed to cure a powder blue of a fluke infestation with properly executed FW dips of up to 10 mins. And yes I did treat for secondary infections just incase.

    If I remember correctly it was with your wise council, Nemo Janitor.

    The PB is now a healthy happy addition in my DT:)
     
    Last edited: 10 Dec 2010
  10. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

    Joined:
    7 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    8,384
    Likes Received:
    286
    Location:
    Joe's Mountain
    Great news. Hope the PB has a long, happy life and brings you much joy.
     
  11. magman

    magman Thread Starter

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    my post I said it is secondry infection, not bleeding and only if the fish is severe,

    Why do you want to FW dip it? It does not kill the fluke cycle? Only if the fish is severe, it can be a source of relief.
     
  12. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

    Joined:
    7 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    8,384
    Likes Received:
    286
    Location:
    Joe's Mountain

    :thumbup: yup,

    Let me go a little further as to why one needs to do a FW dip for a minimum of 5 to about 10 minutes.

    Marine fish unlike their fresh water cousins drink a lot of water. They need to drink water to allow the liver to work. Without going into detail, the lower the salinity, the more water a marine fish will drink. So when one does a hypo salinity or FW dip, the fish consume a considerable amount of water, more than normal for the liver to process. This can lead to the fish looking like it's swim bladder has malfunctioned and for it to swim head down. This is normally the point that when observing, FW treatment should be terminated and the fish returned to normal salinity. I prefer a fast drip to acclimatise the fish rather than a sudden change.

    Most pathogens are sg specific. In other words FW flukes will not live in saline water and vis a ver. This is why we use salt to sort out flukes on koi, guppies and mollies and the FW bath or dip as a very easy way of removing the fluke from Nemo.

    While FW and hypo salinity does affect the liver, it is far less harmful than copper or formalin. Oh !!!And the use of either of these substances is is lethal at low salinity. So never add copper or any medication while the fish is in hypo or FW treatment.

    We need to remove all possible flukes from the fish. This reduces the amount of flukes (i am using "flukes" as a general term as they go through stages) returning to the QT tank for reproduction. The FW dip needs to be done at least 3 times over a 10 day period.

    Getting rid of all the flukes as soon as possible allows one to treat for secondary bacterial infections in a timorously and effective way. We know that bacteria become resistant to some antibiotics and in some cases the antibiotic ineffective and alternatives have to be sought. Now to identify what bacteria is infecting the fish is beyond the scope of the most if not all, but possible. Cost and time inhibit. So a general antibiotic is normally administered. Here lies the Achilles heal. If under dosed the bacteria builds up a resistance and continues it's destruction. Too much antibiotic and the fish cannot withstand the dosage.

    So in short only dose antibiotics if a bacterial infection is detected. And it has to be at a "right first time" principle. Get it wrong and your problems begin and unfortunately with mortality's.
     
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2010
  13. Achilles

    Achilles

    Joined:
    22 Feb 2009
    Posts:
    1,050
    Likes Received:
    100
    Location:
    Cape town
    Many times "flukes" are many differing organisms though which often require different treatments some are not actually worm like but are parasitic copepods these are easier to see with the naked eye than true monogeans(flukes)

    Very often hobbyists think they are only dealing with one pathogen when in reality they dont come in only one's. they like to come as a group eg. whitespot and oodinium may both exist plus bacterial infections on one fish- this often leads to treatment for only one (broader spectrum treatments are very often the best choice)

    Hyposalinity can give rise to a very nasty disease as well which may thrive in hyposaline condition called uronema

    Always first do your best to diagnose then choose a treatment which will be the most effective- in some cases this may be no treatment at all but just the bettering of water conditions, good food and minimal stress

    Many deaths are latrogenic in nature in marine fish kept in captivity
     
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2010
Recent Posts

Loading...
Similar Threads - disease thread share Forum Date
Brown Jelly Disease? General Coral Care 19 Oct 2016
NEW Reef Safe Disease Preventative Treatment (cures most marine diseases) JungleAquatics.NET BLOG 30 Jun 2016
Brown Jelly Disease General Discussions and Advice 15 Mar 2016
NEW Reef Safe Disease Preventative Treatment (cures most marine diseases) Jungle Aquatics 7 Jun 2015
Urgent help needed Valvet disease Urgent Help Needed 20 Apr 2015
Fish disease of the week. Idol Marine 12 Feb 2015
Marine fish disease of the week. Idol Marine 1 Feb 2015