Sump re-design

Discussion in 'Biological/Natural Filtration and Deep Sand Beds' started by Theo, 9 May 2011.

  1. Theo

    Theo

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    Hi all.
    I've struck some bad luck with my tank in the 8months its been running. When my tank was still in the build, I took my sump to a petshop in the montana area and told the guy to design my tank for me. After 8 months I found out from Lanzo the oke gave me ALL the wrong advice. My skimmer is rated for half the volume of my tank, bio balls and ceramic rings was adviced to me and a 3cm DSB(with crushed coral, not aragonite or play sand) would work like a charm.... All of these was the advice the guy gave me(and the wors is the guy charged me close to R6000 for the design). And if you sitting there reading this tread and wondering how this tank could opperate with this sump, well.... It didnt...:eek:

    After my talk with Lanzo and Dewald(thanks for the harsh treuth, atleast theres still honoust poeple out there) I told my fiancee I am going to start over.
    So now I want to do it over and do it right this time, because I really hate losing live stock.
    My DT is 130x55x60 and my sump is a normal 3 foot tank converted into a sump.

    I have a idea of howI can improve my tank, but would like some advice from you guys on MASA on will it work and what to ad and what to remove.

    I really want to do things right this time...


    Ok, so heres the pictures of my idea,(I know it looks stupid, done it on windows paint). The top picture is how my tank looks now. and the bottom picture is what I have in mind.

    Please help here guys...


    [​IMG]
     
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  3. AndrévN

    AndrévN

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    Nothing wrong with design 1 my friend. Most of use the same design. And another thing alot of guys tanks ive seen still have bio balls and ceramic rings and been running for years like that with no harm done, (and all lfs sell them believe me) but it is a matter of choice i think and the way you set up your tank. As a matter of fact i have bio balls filling my overflow compartment and the rest is the same layout as you without the ceramic rings though and my system has been running successfully for a couple of years now. Another thing is i see you say a dsb 3cm deep. I think you understood moolis wrong (he has been in this game way too long to give you such shit advise my friend with due respect as him and i we had our swearing each other blind before but got over that) as the main display tank is 3cm to 5cm deep on average with fine aragonite or whatever suits your needs or budget i suppose. And remember they merely give us advise its for us to decide as youll see we all differ as to how we set up our tanks, and i mean some of us do things totally different to other we just dont say it cause all hell will break loose as to what is right and what is wrong. He has a shop to run and they all do it, but we not getting into that here. As for the dsb maximum 15cm and a lot of guys prefer 10cm max. read up on that there is loads to read under the main forums for advise and the way different people sets them up. Seeding is usually done by adding a cup of a fellow reefers dsb sand to kick start it faster.

    As for design 2 i see you have lr in the first overflow and from there a pump feeding the dsb side, that is a problem cause if the pump from the live rock side packs up you gonna be overflowing everything and or visa versa if i understand your drawing correctly. you can put all those LR in the main display with the same effect or are you planning something else with the dsb.


    Now in all fairness we cannot comment on the tank pricing as suppliers tank design, cabinet and all these factors play a huge roll in the products pricing. did the money charged include a cabinet or not cause tanks are expensive especially if they built strong and or custom built it all counts. Remember once you know what someone has paid for something its easy to beat the pricing too. I paid R7000 for my 1,5m in cabinet with sump many years ago. As i didnt know any other suppliers except my LFS. Im not saying its the cheapest root as there is other roots but it isnt way out either. Most of the newbies including me when we started bought the wrong sumps but merely broke out all the glass comparments to suite our individual needs. But i see your sump is already the correct way as you said the pic 1 is your current setup.


    I wouldnt completely call it to start over though on your current design 1 ill just change it to what you require and it all depends on what you wanting to keep in the long run and leave the ceramics out as it becomes a dissaster waiting to happen of what i read but havent got experience on this firts hand but used what i read and understood. As for the bio balls i cannot comment other than i been using them in my overflow with no ill effect even if they only damp the overflow sound they done no harm to my system. As for the live rock we put them in the main display with couple pieces in the sump.


    Ok now welcome to masa. Make sure you read loads. Go to the newby section too. Dont take every piece of advise to heart read it analize it and make a decision as to what will work or makes best sence to you. Go to oom Hennies corner he has loads of information that money cant buy believe me. You can ask him anything and he will always give you good solid advise of what he has tested and found best to work over the years. But he is the marine guru. other people like adee to mention some, bob the reef builder, sean koekemoer, they all have huge systems and years of experience in this hobby and they will all add to the questions you ask. If you need to know of lighting and outputs in general speak to falcon i think he sleeps with all the light books under his pillow LOL. Please and just a little advise wait with nemo and his nemmie until you have a mature tank before you add them, i would say six months and older tanks is good as all newbies try them too soon and 90 % of them die. Plan your fish and or coral and add them as required once the setup is 100% matured.


    Best of luck and sorry for getting into this hobby being unhappy most of us went through this even me cause we didnt do our homework in the beginning and we were all totally pissed off. But we move on and make this hobby special without holding grudges.
     
  4. Theo

    Theo Thread Starter

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    @ Max. I think theres a misunder standing here. It wasnt Moolis who gave me that advice. They are in the Gezina erea, these guys is in montana itself. If only I went to Moolis or Lanzo in the first place(both of these okes really know what theyre doing and I have great respect for both of them).
    I know its up to us to deside what we do with the advice, but this guy saw a sucker and took advantage of it. He designed the sump and as I was new to the hobby, he kept on draining live stock and my bank account.
    The R6000 I was talking about was money paid only for the sump. The tank was custom build by onother guy.
    He also sold me a skimmer rated for half my tank volume as I didnt know how the ratings work.
    But on a better hand, Ive really learned that you cant read enough(ever).
    Thanks for your input on this Max.
    really want to do thing fresh and right this time round.
     
  5. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Hello Theo

    OK, first, UV light, I believe they are a waste of time. Reason, the globe must be replaced every 3 months, than its done. So after 6 weeks its actually only effective 50%. Also the biofilm that you see in the inside of your tank and you need to use your magnet cleaner to clean the front glass. That same film develops inside the UV unit, actually blocking the light from doing its work. If you want to sterilize the water, rather go for Ozone. OK, Ozone also is tricky.

    Next.
    Balancing pumps, nope never. I can guarantee you a flood.

    But two sumps are possible. I'm running 2 (basically 3).
    The DSB is better than live rock in providing a place for critters to stay. What I got, the second sump (yours on the right) is lifted about 200mm. And drilled. I pump water from return chamber in first sump to it. And it overflows via standpipe back to the first sump.

    I would leave the first sump with DSB. And second sump, instead of live rock, I would rather go for a refugium with cheato.

    You are more than welcome to come around, I stay close to Dorry Pets.
    Upgrade my Downgrade - Page 4 - Marine Aquariums of South Africa
    to get some ideas.
     
  6. Theo

    Theo Thread Starter

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    Thank you Riaan, the reason why I was thinking of making the second sump a DSB is mostly because of the space. My first sumps chamber for the DSB is only 35l x30w. If I make the second sump my DSB it can be 80l x 35w. Will it work if I make the first sump a refugium? Then instead of putting LR in there put it in my DT? The second sump will be 20cm lower than the first one, so I'll drill holes and feed it with 50mm pipe. I also agree with you on uv light, thats the first thing thats going to be chucked...
    Please people, I really need advice....
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: 10 May 2011
  7. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    ok, first sump, is the one below the tank. Am I right?
    So first sump will have skimmer, then small compartment (35*30cm), then last empty chamber. Maybe some biological, like small liverock pieces.

    Anyway, that small last chamber, is drilled, either on the bottom or side, Depends on access. And it overflow via 50mm to second sump. Second sump is 20cm lower than first. Second, no need for first chamber, can have the outlet facing up, level with water surface. Or narrow first chamber, or any design that will distribute the flow. Big as possible DSB, with return chamber.

    OK, first small (ex-DSB) nothing wrong to make that a refugium. Would be nice, with constant cross flow.

    New big DSB, only problem is possible sand storm if inlet does not spread the flow.

    New return chamber, must be big enough to handle at least 2 to 3 days water evaporation without topping up. Looks like 10% of system volume per week. So you can calculate that.

    That will work.
    Or you can keep both DSB sections. And on the new one, depending on your design, you can have a really deep water level above the sand. Allowing ample space to use that "wasted" space as a refugium. No problem combining a DSB and refugium, providing you have enough water depth to accommodate the macro algae.

    My new sump, water level above sand is 250mm. I like it.
     
  8. AndrévN

    AndrévN

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    O ok my apologies then. I know moolis and fought with him really bad but he is not that bad though. Was thinking geese he loves money but his not that crazy.

    Eish dude 6k for a sump thats theft litteraly

    And im seriously sorry for your losses i know ive been there.
     
  9. Theo

    Theo Thread Starter

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    @Max. dont worry, its ok. I really lost almost 25 fish(2xyellow tangs, regal and lipstick included).


    @RIAAN. Buddy thanx alot for your input, I really appreciate. Your right on how I want to set it up. Tell me what you think 'bout this idea. 1st Sump- (1st chamber)skimmer,saving up for a SUPER REEF OCTOPUS EXT 3000,(2nd chamber,the very small one on the picture)heaters,(3rd chamber)DSB with some macro algea, (4th chamber)some small pieces of live rock and PO4 reactor. From there it goes via 50mm pipe to first chamber of second sump. Water flow about 5cm over long DSB, last chamber has return pump to DT, and also with auto top up unit with kalkwasser and RO H2O.

    What you think?
     
    Last edited: 11 May 2011
  10. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    first, ensure the footprint. 370mm by 610mm
    Will that fit?

    Also, the sequence should be mechanical, biological then chemical. The PO4 reactor should be last. Or its pick up should be last.
     
  11. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Where in Pretoria are you?
     
  12. Theo

    Theo Thread Starter

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    I am going to order a external skimmer, so its just the feed pump that is going to be in first chamber. Regarding the po4 reactor, ill put it in the return chamber.. I live in montana.
     
  13. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    OK, if I understand your first pic then correctly, you will remove the UV unit, move the sump to the right, and place external skimmer on the left. Is that the idea.
    Still the question, is there enough space under the tank to fit both the external skimmer and the sump?

    Other option, if skimmer fit INSIDE the sump, is to use the space of the UV light for an Auto topup tank. But then I would like to raise the external sump and have it flow back to the sump under the tank. That will enable you to use the full size of the external sump for the DSB.
     
  14. Theo

    Theo Thread Starter

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    The sump under the tank will be closest to the left, skimmer feeding pump in first chamber and skimmer will be on the left side of the tank but on the outside of the tank. second external sump will be gravity fed with 50mm pipe with downfall of 20cm. And return pump to DT will be in 2nd sump.
     
  15. Theo

    Theo Thread Starter

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    Bump
     
  16. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Will the sump under the tank move a bit to the right? To allow space for the external skimmer on the left?
     
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