Sump advise please!!!

Discussion in 'Beginner Discussions' started by RFSwanepoel, 5 Mar 2012.

  1. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel

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    Hi Guys

    I am in the proses of designing my Tank & Sump layout for a 800 X 500 X 500, 180L Display tank with a 100 X 300 centre back overflow.

    And I need approval on my sump design. I think I over did it but rather to much than to little.

    Please have a look at this and post some thoughts.

    Sump is 800 x 350 x 350, 98L if filled to top. So a guess would be about 85L built from 10mm & 5mm Acrylic.
    Skimmer Camber is 200 X 200 big enough for TS 1 & TS 2.

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  3. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    Personally I think its too much and will be a pain to keep all the filter media clean. I would also make the skimmer compartment bigger in case you feel the need to upgrade the skimmer later on. With the current design you will have to build a new sump. And you might say no you wont upgrade the skimmer, but I know of a few people who started with the TS1/2 and soon afterwards upgraded to bigger ones.

    You say you have 2 levels for algae grown but how is light going to get to the bottom layer if the top is covered with algae? And are those algae shelves removable so that you can get to the bottom one to clean it?

    I can also see that if the filter media in the chamber after the skimmer gets blocked then you will have a overflow problem. There is no place where the water can flow over to another chamber without going over the top of the sump onto the floor. Thats because your internal "walls" are the same height as the sump itself.
     
  4. Voidrunner

    Voidrunner

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    I agree with Marius on all, all internal walls should be lower than the sump edges, to stop overflow. With so many chambers you might be overcomplicating stuff, anyway, put your filtermedia in a container of some kind to be able to remove it easily. You will be cleaning it a lot, especially if you choose to go with bioballs or stuff like that.
     
  5. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Where is the front?
    Meaning from which side will you access the sump? If skimmer is at the back, then it should be "OK" for cleaning the cup. But removing and replacing that skimmer or return pump and you must ensure that there are no kids or parrots in the house. At least you can get to the filter media chamber.

    Other way around, and then you struggle to get to the filter media.

    The wall between skimmer and return chamber should be lower by 3-4cm, to allow for blockage.

    Also, how much space between sump and the underside of the tank. You need to drop straight down a TS2 skimmer in that square little box. Sure the pump will go in? So you need as much space between sump and tank/stand underside as what a TS2 is tall without its cup.
     
  6. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    Cool

    Thanks for the info.

    The top (RED) algae panel is removable. And the bottom one is just to divert the water back to the beginning of the Refugium.
    I will redesigns for the overflow issue on the filter media compartments. Thanx I didn't even think of that.
    The design is for a TS1 and possible TS 2 upgrade later on. but I will check sizes on larger skimmers to see what I can upgrade to if the TS 2 doesn't cut it. I can later on just add a new Small little tank that flows into the sump for a even bigger skimmer or buy and Out of sump skimmer.

    The filter media should not be an issue to clean as the 2 layers on top of each other is for Bio Balls or what ever and the one next to it is for a sponge, I will put the bio balls into veggie bags so I don't have to fish them out one by one and the separators are also removable. (I only drew one into the pic but there will be 2 of them)

    Thanx for the tips though I am already at design No 3 here. I will post a redesign soon.
     
  7. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    @RiaanP

    I have not designed the stand yet so I can make sure there is enough space for the cleaning and I will be able to access the sump from the left and right sides.
    Skimmer is at the back for plumbing.

    In the tank I have 2 overflow pipes drilled for blockage of the plumbing and the same with the returns. Will put a T-piece close to the tank for the return to split to 2 pipes.

    And the overflow issues I can pick up the sump sides with 5cm all round 800 X 400 X 350

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    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  8. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    What size holes are you using for the overflow? They look like the same size as the return pipes. Use 50mm for the 2 overflow if you can. And are you going to use durso stand pipes? If you do then make them high so that you dont get a waterfall sound when the water goes over the overflow.

    Dont know if you planned on doing this as well but add some long braces on the top of tank to attach you front-to-back braces on. If you go 10mm then you should be able to go rimless.
     
  9. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    @mariusmeyer
    I am actually clue less on the pipe sizes.
    I am using the Durso Stand pipes, will make them about 20mm lower than the overflow line.
    I found a thing that says 1" (25.25mm)ish Diameter plumbing should allow for 600L/h flow, But I stand to be corrected.

    I am planning on using flexible pipes from the bottom of the tank to the sump so I don't need any 45 & 90 degree bends as that slows the flow and the same for the return.

    Also something I'm not sure about is on my 180L tank plus 85 to 96 L in the sump how many time do I need to circulate the water per hour ? Once, Twice or 3 times? so 300l/h, 600l/h or 900l/h ?
    This will obviously change my pipe size if it needs to.

    I'm using 8mm glass, but I did check with Moolis @ Pet Stop SA about this and he said it should be fine the way it is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  10. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Well, the rim of the tank, should be under your armpit. That is if you need to reach the bottom without standing on something. So Depending on how tall you are, about 1500 to 1600mm from the ground. minus 500mm for tank depth, minus 10 for polystyrene and another 30 to 50mm for stand. Sump is 400 high, plus 10mm for polystyrene. TS2 body is 430. So you have 100mm left. Provided sump stand on the floor. Can work out.

    Make it 50mm.

    Your bracing is not wide enough. that is 20 to 30mm in your design?

    What are those 2 panels next to the tank? Are they tank covers?
    They work on freshwater, but not on saltwater. Saltspray quickly covers them and block your light. And it limits gas exchange. Especially if you put your sump in a cabinet. Leave that.
     
  11. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    Thanx I will do that. 50mm it is. without cover panels.
    And a whole lot of redesign on the sump.

    And also yes the sump and stand have to be on the floor as it's going on a wooden floor (Only if it's less than 400kg) so I need all the foot support I can get. can't have a stand with 4 X 50mm pressure points. So I need the foot piece to be a solid square. I might have to replace my floors & Tank when I'm done but I figure it's worth the chance.

    How much does 1L of salt water weigh? any one know.
    This is the part where I can have it upstairs if it's less than 400kg in total otherwise it's going downstairs.

    Also if I want it up stairs I am limited to a hight of 1100mm on everything including the hood. which will probably be about 200 ish?

    But as the info come it seems my tank is going downstairs anyway :(
     
  12. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    So if I up my glass to 10mm I can remove the support braces ?
     
  13. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    And recommendations on skimmer with all this ?
    I was told I can get away with a TS1 but I'd rather have a TS2 ? (I am hopeing a TS2 will handle it)
    Any thoughts on this?
    In total (Sump And Display) the water should not be more than 300L
    And I want a mixed reef.
     
  14. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    I would most probably go for the NW-150 from reef octopus. Rated 50L more than the TS2 but it has a bubble plate etc which I think is better. Some skimmer bofs might be better to ask.

    10mm will be fine to go braceless.
     
  15. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    OK so I'm busy with a redesign of my sump.

    And I am left with some more questions.
    -What size do I need to give the return chamber? 150mm X 150mm fine? (Not sure what pump I need)
    -Do I need the Algae growth panels?
    -And how deep should the water in my Skimmer chamber be for a TS 2 & a TS 1 ?
    -How many chambers will I need for filter media ? I'm generally going for 3 of them?
    -And the bubble trap, does it need to be a separate thing or can I make it part of the filter media
    chambers ?
     
  16. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    You will have to check what pumps you want to use for a return and get their sizes. Also make space where the float switch will be for the ATU. You dont need algae growth panels. You already have a refugium so no need for it.The number of chambers for filter media is dependent on hoe much and what types of filter media you will use. And if you keep the design (order of flow) as it was then a bubble trap is pointless as all bubbles will disappear as the water moves through the sump. A bubble trap in only needed if you have a sharp drop over into the return chamber or where the skimmers outlet is very close to the return chamber (small sump).
     
  17. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Big enough to handle at least 2 days evaporation in case the ATU do not work.

    On average you do about 10% of your system water evaporation per week. So take 10% your system volume, divide by 7 multiply by 2. That is the volume that you need ABOVE the return pump.
     
  18. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    Cool Thanx for the help I appreciate it guys.

    One more Question though.
    How many time per hour should my total body of water circulate per hour if I'm working with a max of 300L?

    300L/h
    600L/h
    900L/h
    Or even more?
     
  19. RFSwanepoel

    RFSwanepoel Thread Starter

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    OK so I need an ATU... lol
    OK.
    Do U think a 15L water container upside-down would do the trick ? Like a auto water feeder for a dogs water bowl kind design?
    And when the water level reaches a pipe in the sump it will auto fill and when the container reaches about 20% I do a refill of the container ?
    If I work on 300L which is probably about 15-20L overcompensating on the total volume.
    I will be losing +/- 8L pre week.
    And if I have a 15L auto fill container won't that water go bad if it's not circulating with the rest of my water ? Should max only be in the container not moving for a week to two weeks?
    And this is only RO water right? Not RO with salt?

    I don't have an RO unit so I will be buying water from a shop close to my work.
    Will eventually invest in an RO when I get the hang of all this.
     
  20. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    You will lose closer to 30L a week. And even more if you have to use evaporation cooling. Problem with a upside down bottle with a pipe is to make it completely airtight. Better option is to get a separate container with a feed pump connected to a float switch in the return chamber.
     
  21. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    And if I was you I would buy the RO unit before filling the tank first time round. at R1 a litre the unit would have paid 20% of its cost one shot. And if you work on 10% waterchange every 2 weeks and the 30L of RO a week for topup, then the unit will have paid for itself after just 6 months. The bigger the tank the sooner a RO unit pays for itself.

    And you also never know when you need to do an emergency waterchange, and in that case your shop might be closed.
     
    Last edited: 6 Mar 2012
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