Urgent help needed suffering great losses

Discussion in 'Urgent Help Needed' started by amalick, 1 Jun 2014.

  1. amalick

    amalick

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    Hey guys, its been a few years but i'm back with my tail between my legs.

    This was me a few years ago..

    Featured System May 2011 - Amalick - Marine Aquariums South Africa


    This system suffered a huge collapse about 1 year ago. I was too embarrassed to post on the forum. Long story short.... I lost everything :( in 24 hours.

    I got over it and started again, but now my losses are starting all over again with the same symptoms and I need your wisdom.

    My fish keep dying overnight and all my measurable water paremeters are almost perfect. I'm not going to list them here for the sake of not typing an essay.

    As I type this message I just lost another 3 fish. This plays out like this. One day they are fine and then overnight DEATH!!. THey just lie down and die as if they are falling asleep. If I catch it in time and can get them out an put them in my QT and 5 times of 10 they recover.

    Tangs seem to be the most prone to this. My corals are all doing fine and many fish are not affected at all. In fact I have a fox face that has been in the tank for 6 months now with no such symptoms.

    Please help, because I am very close to throwing the towel in again:(:(:(. I am looking for anyone who has seen something similar or if there is any advise that you gurus may have to prevent another crash which seems very possible.

    More posts to follow, with some video and pics when i'm less stressed
     
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  3. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    Sounds chemical, or lack of O2
     
  4. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Which chemical

    Thanks for the rapid reply:)

    Sooooo many questions, which is why i was afraid to post my problem in case I upset you guys. But here goes

    Chemical
    Yup, but which chemical is the million dollar question ?. Whatever it is, it does not affect any corals including many sensitive ones

    Oxygen
    How do I get O2 UP, and what on earth is draining it overnight, because I change nothing at night, only lighting. Shall I flood the sump with an airstone at night until I figure this out ?

    Why only certain fish and not all of them ?
     
  5. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    We are speculating, a full system overview would be required. Had a brief look at your previous tank, is the setup still the same?
    If chemical, or even O2, corals will survive longer than fish. Why some fish: simply put, they are tougher, can handle low O2 better. You still running ATS on reverse lighting?
    What is sucking O2 out the water? Respiration.
    Give us some details on the system setup and I might be able to help.
    In tank sandbed? Flowrate from sump to tank?
    ATS, refugium lighting regime?
    Air exchange between fish tank and atmosphere?
    Bioload?
    Running O3?
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2014
  6. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    More details

    Fair enough..

    Primary setup
    Very similar or same system as before including physical location and the tank itself... so my TOTM thread explain 95% of the current setup. It might be a lot to read but at least its very detailed and accurate and written in a very logical order so you can skip certain sections and go straight to the sections that you are intrested in instead of me repeating it all on this thread.

    The 5% that's changed is that when the system crashed in last year I removed certain equipment to try and diagnose what when wrong in stages. So now I no longer have or use Ozone, Kalkwasser, phytoplankton reactor, sulphur and hydrocarbonate denitrator and stuck to the basics :- just the sump, skimmer, chiller, deep sand bed and UV remain.

    I stripped down the deep sand bed about a month ago as well and replaced it with a new sand bed.

    The only remaining element of the old tank that could or may still be holding a form of toxin could be the old substrate, but I rinsed that so many times when I took the tank down that I really doubt it.

    Lighting
    Lighting regime remains the same 9am to 11pm on cycle in stages, but I switched to LED instead of MH.

    Flowrate
    From sump = 10000 lph
    In tank = 4 x seio prop 1500 at 6000lph and 2 x sicce's at 6000 lph

    Bioload
    4 x damsel
    4 x chromis
    1 x foxface 12 cm
    1 x purple tang 12 cm
    3 x yellow tang (10 cm - but all died overnight last night)
    1 x bi-colour (5 cm - died overnight last night)
    1 x leautenant surgen (15 cm - died overnigh 2 weeks ago)
    1 x naso (15 cm - died overnight 1 week ago)
    1 x sailfin tang (10cm - died overnight 2 weeks ago)
    1 x scopa (10cm - died overnight 3 weeks ago)

    Corals
    Only softies : Elegane x 3, Various mushrooms, Hammers x 3, frogspawn x 4, colts x 3, leathers etc..

    Air exchange between tank and atmospher
    Tank is built into a wall and surrounded by a an enclosed cabnet. I runn an extractor which removes air inside from the cabnet at night. THis has been running like this for many many years, even while I won TOTM.

    Hope i'm answering all your questions, because I am prepared to put the effort in to get to the bottom of the problem. Also attached is a pic of the tank as at yesterday. I will upload a video to youtube shortly.

    1.jpg
     
  7. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Video of the death

    I clip of what the death looks like just before its all over

     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Apr 2016
  8. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Yesterday at 3pm

    The tank yesterday at 3pm. I took the video in HD, but reduced the quality for quicker upload to youtube and reduced bandwidth for you guys. Let me know if you want full HD.

    .

    I managed to save 1 yellow tang, but two died overnight. I found the bi-colour between the rocks, but I was too late.

    All the fish that died were in QT for 3 weeks up until yesterday when I put them in the tank via a drip over 2 hours.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Apr 2016
  9. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    What wood is the cabinet made from, any chipboard? Varnish?
    The extractor fan sucks to where? And, air is brought in from home or outside?
    That is quite a bioload, even for a 2M
    The DSB in Sump?
    Testing equipment, probes all calibrated and working, especially pH?

    My apologies for not saying this earlier,: condolences at your losses.
    I am still stuck on the O2, your comment about tangs being mostly affected keeps bringing back that thought, although 10 000lph return would help to mitigate, but DSB respiration at lights off combined with tank bioload doing the same...
     
  10. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    All fish were eating? Food used?
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2014
  11. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Have you checked for electrolysis in your tank?

    The gills of the fish do they look swollen and red? What do the eyes of the fish look like?
     
  12. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    1) The extractor sucks air from within the cabnet into the living room so ambient air from within the room the tank is in inside the house, will displace the air that is sicked out.

    2) The cabnet is made from melamine chipboard

    3) The bioload is way way lower than before when I won TOTM, The total tank volume is 1200l when you include the sump and other additional attached water volume tanks.

    4) The DSB is not in the sump, but attached as a seperate tank (almost like another sump)

    5) Testing kits are all red sea and new, KH, PO4, NO3, NO2, PH, Silicate, Iodine, Magnesium, calcium etc..

    6) Probes are calibrated weekly and I have two of each to make sure that things are not out of wack. I will upload a video of the engine room shortly. PH is stable at 8.3 and DKH is 9
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2014
  13. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    I feed only Ocean Nutrition flake and pellet foods 3 time pay day, via auto feeder in small quantities and Nori when I feel like it. All fish eat like pigs even the day before they die
     
  14. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Not sure what you mean by electrolysis ? - but ORP is between 350 and 450.

    No visible external signs on the fish when they die and after including the eyes, especially the gills look normal. The fish just lie down and sleep and look like they are gasping for breath.
     
  15. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    The fact that the fish recover in your QT system should rule out atmospheric influences and suspect foods. It points to something specific to the tank.

    I am guessing like Ivan first suggested lack of O2. If your tank has a faulty bit of kit that is leaking electricity it could be forming hydrogen depleting O2 and producing chlorimine.

    I would check electrical current in the tank. Also check chlorimine and Iron.
     
  16. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    OMG, Just noticed that Nemos Janitor has replied to my thread. THe ultimate GURU:), Im certain that we will get to the bottom of this now !

    How do I check electrical current in the tank - With a multimeter ? - Some guidance as to a safe way to do this would be appreciated.

    Also how do I test for chloramine & Iron ? - are there test kits for this ?

    One pattern that I am able to determine is that this only happens between 1am and 6am at night and once the lights start coming on all death stops for those that were not affected overnight.
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2014
  17. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Video

    Video of tank taken 10 minutes ago and all is well again



    Later tonight death may start all over again. Pay special attention the beautiful purple tang, he may not be with us tomorrow:(
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Apr 2016
  18. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Forgot to answer this

    I no longer run an ATS, in fact I stop this a long time ago (+/- 2 years) before the original tank crash because I had little to no algae growth on the scrubber
     
  19. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Electrical current ?

    Why am I not getting electrocuted if I have electrical leakage in the water or is it just too low to notice ?
     
  20. amalick

    amalick Thread Starter

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    Just lost another yellow tang

    Oh nooo!!

    I just lost another yellow tang that I thought I would save by putting him in my QT. He was swimming fine in the main display so I thought i would catch him and save him.

    Anyway, he took about 20 minutes to die.

    This means that I lost 3 yellow tangs overnight.

    Not sure what to do about the pruple tang, because he seems fine in the main display, he is even eating.

    Help !!!!
     
  21. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Yes you can test for current in you tank with a multimeter. Test AC voltage in the water around pumps, heaters, test probes etc.

    Te explain what may be happening is that electricity leaking into the aquarium will cause the water H2O to split. So you end up producing hydrogen gas and chloromine compounds. So in effect you are producing a bleach. This bleach normally causes the fish gills to go red.

    Seachem make an iron test kit and jungle make a chlorine/ chloromine test kit.
     
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