Rumours and Permits part 2

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by viper357, 17 Jul 2012.

  1. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    continuation of this thread - Rumours and Nonsense - Marine Aquariums of South Africa

    Response from Nemos Janitor.

     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2012
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  3. rakabos

    rakabos

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    The point most people tried to make was that this person who had the illegal coral was completely unaware of the situation he found himself in, by not knowing the law. And by reporting him, it just showed lack of class, lack of whatever u want to call it. And as you can see nobody liked it one bit!
     
  4. Jayceew

    Jayceew

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    NJ - if this guy was taking coral illegally from the ocean and started a business from it challenging guys with legal permits then I would have supported you, but this was a guy just like me and the rest of the guys on the forum that is only doing it as a hobby.

    If anything, I think you took it out of context.

    Perhaps everyone did run with this too far but this could have been addressed by you yesterday morning already.

    I think the issue of fighting for the hobby etc is a different subject, we are talking now about you reporting someone for a small mistake.

    It would be the same if I had to report my neighbour to the police for watching illegal copies of movies or series, it's just not necessary in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2012
  5. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    So, when i start fragging again, i can sell or swap my frags but i may not...... ? I stay away from forums mostly due to this type of threads. Its fun to read and all that, but honestly people, some of you need to take a serious introspective look at yourselves.... I know better than posting here, but somehow i got swept up by all this blah blah fishpaste. If more people actually spent the time you use to post bull on learning more about your corals, half the imports would probably be unnessascary, as half the corals imported would not die. Seriously, think about it..... And someone used the word conservation........really? Perhaps then we would have more intellectual conversation around here....... Ever thought why some of the old schoolers and knowledgable people have moved on. Some (most) of us still have tanks, but simply dont care to assist those that don't want to listen......
    I see a lot of people taking things from our ovean that they should not, and i know its my duty to report them, and sometimes i do, but am i going to report the one kid catching an undersize fishy and taking it home to show mommy? Nope, but if he is old enough, i might feel compelled to teach him what is right or wrong....... Or i'll just take it from him and use it fir livebait......:tt2: but let me see someone poaching abalone, i will do something about it, not because i am all for conservation, but simply because i am not allowed to take it out for myself....... Thanks to the likes of people like him.

    I sold the odd frag ;)in my time, knowing it is illegal, But there was no legal way to do it, and to my knowledge there still is not. Is that going to stop me from doung it when the sps grow out my tank again and start forming atolls at the waters surface and restricting flow and growth of other corals? No, as i will not frag my sticks and end up using the frags in my calcium reactor (which i did when i got tired of selling to people that would just kill em anyway)!!!!!! I thank anybody who attempts to make it legal somehow, and dont fear their intentions, as it has not been proven to be malicious. If it is, well then, what goes around comes around! There is not only one cites permit doing the rounds.....
    Who are we to judge.......
    Hope i have stirred up the nest a bit now.......
     
  6. brentv

    brentv

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    Iv'e Lived on the coast my whole life and noticed a few of the following things:

    People get legit, get issued a permit to Catch fish, collect softies etc..

    But the educational way is still better than just "Tittle Tailing" on someone.. (Unless he knows what he is doing and being an ass about it!:blush:)
    Explain to the new excited Reefer if he is seen taking the wrong coral!
    Explain why it is better to take just a small piece of the Zoa colony.. and not the whole thing!

    I often get bummed when I arrive to a secret spot to find it aint so secret anymore and someone has stripped it clean:( (Especially Holiday seasons:whistling:)
    Nothing better than taking a frag, coming back in a few months and seeing it grown over where you took:thumbup:

    I for one am willing to show anyone who comes my side how to go about this if they would like.

    Even finding the right frags are an art, you can search an area of rockponds for hours and see nothing unless your eye is trained correct to pick out what is legal, what grows in a tank.. and what doesn't!

    There are a lot of softies that get taken that just pollute the reefers tank too.. even if they pretty bright blue etc!!

    So educate first... 2nd time crap on them!
     
  7. Lord_Blackadder

    Lord_Blackadder

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    Well said.

    The people we should be concerned about are the guys poaching large amounts of local fish and selling them Durban and Joburg, the guys hacking off entire coral heads, the guys emptying rockpools...not the guy who makes a mistake which has virtually zero environmental impact.

    To put this in perspective. Two months ago the Durban harbour authorities dumped 30000 metric tons of sand over about 300 full sized colonies of the same coral that the original guy was threatened for taking. Why was there almost nothing said of this, but a tiny frag is suddenly a big problem? Oh right yes...somebody's pocket is being threatened.
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Please read this again

    Does not matter if NJ reported the person or not. He is getting his backside whipped by either the MASA members if he did report or the Authorities if he did not.

    So give the man some slack. I can understand and see his efforts. And I do support at least some form of effort being made to change the current law around this hobby.

    The bandwagon is full, time to get off and either accept the efforts being made, or give up your own time and money to help with this issue. Stop screaming from the safety behind your keyboard.

    But I will not support any monopoly efforts by anyone. That, I do not agree with at all. (Hopefully I got that part completely wrong).
     
  9. CocaColaza

    CocaColaza

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    This is so true, and I think the spirit of this forum is education, and i think this is where things got messed up when we saw the reefer getting reported. There was no attempt at education and this goes against everything this forum and reef keeping in general is about in my opinion.
     
  10. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Also I accept the stern warning from NJ about the coral and possible reporting it. Next time that member and others will think twice before removing something that should be left alone.

    Your response now is to scream from your keyboard. Coming out of the ocean with that coral in your hand with some Parks board member crossing your way and you will be pleading. Think about it, do you rather accept a stern warning that will prevent you from being handed a fine in the future, or do you rather want the fine?

    OK, I do not think the comment was OK, but stern it was. Made all you guys think about what you take. In fact, I actually think it was a brilliant comment from NJ. All of you reacted. But taking his sweet time in responding... Well that escalated things a bit too much.
     
  11. brentv

    brentv

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    Riaan,
    I'm on the Fence with this because I agree that the powers that may be need to have a better understanding and set of rules for our hobby!
    But also feel that it should be approached by a task force democratically chosen for this, I would definately include NJ in this Task force as he has started the ball rolling
     
  12. Wes

    Wes

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    might take you up on this, We have a beach cottage down in Uvongo :)
     
  13. Wes

    Wes

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    or next time they'll just take it and not mention it, then when they need it ID'ing here on MASA they'll say they bought it from the LFS...
     
  14. mookz

    mookz

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    Everyone has valid points and it is great to see everyone so passionate about this hobby.
    My personal view is that this should have happened in PM not on the open forum.
    I reckon a moderator should have been contacted first to make a decision on how to move forward.
     
  15. archiecrain

    archiecrain

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    Far to often someone takes something out and then posts on here asking " please ID and is it suitable for my 1 week old tank? " this is the problem

    Why not photograph what you are wanting to remove from the ocean for an ID before you take it out.....rather than the other way round.....and have the relevent permit to do so.

    That would be the responsible thing to do. Its just that simple, this whole argument could have been avoided with a little common sense, ignorance IMO isnt a very good excuse.
     
  16. Lord_Blackadder

    Lord_Blackadder

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    Ok lets look at this more closely. Who would benefit from having aquaculture permits in place?

    1. The hobbyist - No. As it currently stands people are fragging corals and breeding fish and it costs them nothing and involves no bureaucracy.
    2. The environment - No. Less people fragging means more people buying wild corals. The environment is actually being adversely affected.
    3. You. Yes. Aquarists would have to spend money for a permit as well as endure paperwork and who knows what else in order to do what they are currently doing. This means less people fragging and trading and more people buying your product.

    Now do you understand why we are so skeptical of your master plan?
     
  17. Suhayl

    Suhayl

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    There is no money in selling frags. I have sold before lots and that just covers up my expenses to run my tank. I use to buy from a guy in JHB that had a fairly nice size setup, bought once from him and the next time me contacted him his suffered a total crash. Even if you make it a business I dont think you going to make lots of money and your tanks have to be bulletproof because one can suffer major losses.
     
  18. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    The hobbyist would benefit. As the law currently stands it is illegal to breed fish and frag coral. And there are talks of banning all imports of non-aquacultured fish and coral. Members on the forum are trying to get those laws changed to allow for breeding locally and thus allowing for the hobby to continue. As the hobby grows, the officials are starting to pay more attention, hence the fragging thing never being an issue before.
    Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who assists or inquires about permits and legislation is trying to monopolize the industry.
     
  19. Rory

    Rory Admin MASA Contributor

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    I think that there's a misconception that SAPTA/Keith/Adee/whoever are the ones who initiated anything here with all the comments like "stirring the pot", "pandoras box"etc. If it wasn't for SAPTA intervening a few months ago we probably wouldn't even have a hobby today. The new gauteng nature conservation bill was around before it had anything to do with reefkeeping but if you've read any of the current legislature the main problem is that reefkeeping wasn't taken into account and that's why, as the law stands it's currently illegal. Yes most of the time you have nothing to worry about, and then suddenly someone gets arrested for "keeping marine organisms". The last draft I've seen of the gauteng nature conservation bill would be yet more laws that would make reefkeeping illegal. Obviously doing it even though it's illegal is not the ideal situation and I for one would at least prefer that the laws be made sensibly and we can carry on as we were and have the necessary laws there to prosecute those guys who are doing the "wrong" thing because as it stands at the moment it's all a mess.
     
  20. Bob the (reef)builder

    Bob the (reef)builder

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    Stop worrying about something that is not worth worrying about. It's like you are looking for some sort of conspiracy.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2012
  21. Lord_Blackadder

    Lord_Blackadder

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    It might technically be illegal but it's a grey area and it's not enforced. If you suddenly have businesses benefitting from it then they're going to do the enforcing and then the hobbyist is going to feel the pressure. The current situation has worked for as long as coral fragging has been around and I see absolutely no reason for it to change.

    That ban will never happen. Not even our retarded government will go that far. Not when a significant number of people's livelyhoods are at stake. People are just using these stupid rumours as a way to further their own agendas.

    Instead of introducing permits, they should be changing the law to completely do away with any laws regarding coral fragging (like the rest of the world). The only legislation that should be in place should be to protect our local waters from foreign species and exploitation.
     
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