Reverse flow UG filter

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by dallasg, 3 Feb 2013.

  1. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Thoughts on using a reverse flow under gravel filter to keep substrate clean?
    @Paul B @irie ivan
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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  3. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    there must be some reason for you wanting to know this, but my 2 cents will say it does work to a degree untill chanels are formed where water will pass through certain areas more easily than others...

    i have seen how evenly dirty water is pushed up from the bottom when feeding the new water into the sump and allowing it to be pumped via the RFUG during a waterchange, so it definatley works for the lighter stuff..

    given todays technology and availability of stronger pumps im sure the system could be tweaked to perform properly..

    but unless it for a specific application eg seahorses, would you really want to go back to it?
     
  4. belindamotion

    belindamotion Google Master

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  5. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I am keen on using it to stop food settling and keeping gravel clean as 99% of issues hide there
     
  6. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    finer substrate and no UG of any kind.. still the best option IMO...
     
    Last edited: 5 Feb 2013
  7. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    logic says that reverse flow will be better, i still plan to sift the gravel and clean it, so its not a cope out but from a detritus free gravel bed it screams better params
     
  8. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i have to tend to agree with leslie here fine sunstrate and decent CUC.
    I have reservations about rfugf.
    Unless you are going to prefilter, which means more maintenence.
     
  9. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    there is no maintenance, the water fluidizes the gravel and keeps it clean...
    i remember @Paul B i think uses them and Martin Moe Jr

    just some ideas i am looking at
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  10. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    in an adeal world and if flow wold remain uniform and constant through it i would say yes.. but dirt will eventually creep into all the little nooks and crannies.. if it happens in a bare bottom system in will definatley happen in a RFUGF system...

    nature knows best......
     
  11. Nemeziz_za

    Nemeziz_za

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    This statement I think we all suspect to be true. We try to bend nature everyday to our whims and fancies and what we learn over the long haul is that the least amount of maintenance suits our human behavior. So in the end I guess we learn to force the degree of the bend in a far more passive and planned manner for the best outcome to both, nature and ourselves.

    It certainly not to say that the idea doesn't have merit, it should be tried @dallasg and the findings shared. We know of other experiments in the past that have yielded surprising results. Isaac anyone ;p
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  12. Nemeziz_za

    Nemeziz_za

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    As for the substrate, what substrate did you have in mind @leslie hempel
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  13. pkc

    pkc

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    I used to use that type of bio filter when commercially collecting in the early eighties.
    It works far better then anything else for the nitrite cycle, to nitrate.
    I vertical wet section is more space saving,close to as good and in them you can incorporate very functional nitrate atom separation finishing off the nitrogen cycle.
     
    Last edited: 5 Feb 2013
  14. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I would suggest a sugarfine substrate to eliminate dirt being able to be caught as easily within the substrate...

    I have run a system of a RFUGF and it worked well for years , but then again so did my Jebo skimmer rated at 2000lt capacity on the very same system..

    In the past we always used the filter for "necessary" biological filtration.. its become known to us that it can be done without and more attention / portion of budget be put into LR and skimming....... ;)
     
  15. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Do you want to achieve full base fluidization or just patches like the video?

     
    Last edited by a moderator: 11 Apr 2016
  16. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    good point ,

    to clarify are we talking a full on plumbing system below a eggcrate platform or something simular to what butherman has posted above?
     
    Last edited: 5 Feb 2013
  17. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    sounds like a good idea, will look at this route, can i use any sand?

    thanks for the replies, i will ditch the idea :)
     
  18. pkc

    pkc

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    The skimmer live rock combo we used to use in the late eighties is good, I gave it away by the early 90s.The skimmer helps prevent inorganic from forming once organics are processed by the nitrogen cyclers. That’s good in one way, yet leaves your aquarium waters devoid of nutrients that are now being realised as being essential for a mix of inverts in many ways.
    For space saving and if not a lot of marine experience, a skimmer is helpful.
    The main draw back to the skimmer-live rock combo is the limitations they put on how much life the aquarium can sustain and the safety of aquarium life.
    If the skimmer fails as they do, with the skimmer power heads being exposed to abrasive particles, then they fail or weaken in function until noticed by then the organics that were being removed are now needed to be cycled to inorganic, you now have issues!
    Live rock is weak at best for nitrate atom separation and extra phosphorus is becoming abundant once the skimmer is less functional, plus live rock as it becomes more “live” like coralline encrusting loses surface area.
    Of course if you check the skimmer very regularly and replace power head impellors before the impellor area is compromised, then it’s better then nothing.
     
  19. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    @pkc i am loosely basing my filtration on the berlin method, but trying to keep things as simple and efficient as possible, i have 2 skimmers, 1 external and 1 internal, about 1kg of LR per 10L, but would like a failsafe of eighter bio-balls or a fludised filter
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  20. pkc

    pkc

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    Keep your waters clean before any grit, especialy anaerobic areas; this was why the old trickle filters got the label (nitrate factories) absolute crap pre filtering!!!!!.
    The most simple and affective bio filter I have ever made was in 1996.
    It doesn’t do phosphorus at all, but I don’t keep sps or any other delicates in with it any way, but it sustains so much life to no nitrogen cycle remaining its not funny.
    Its got fantastic pre filtering I made up, that’s what keeps it clean over all these years, so good I cure other club members white spot and velvet in there.
    After pre filtering its just one half of 6 to 12 mill coral rubble and the other half is 3 to 6 mill coral rubble and shell grit.
    The water moves through the larger openings of the lager grit oxidising to nitrate, the finer grit the water passes next to it, similar to a deep sand bed up against the larger grit, separates the nitrate atoms and never fails to keep a massive load in check.
    I just cut cardboard to the size of the glass box and filed one side with small grit and the other larger sized grit and pulled the cardboard out, which was over 15 years ago.
    It’s a very powerful nitrogen cycler.
     
    Last edited: 5 Feb 2013
  21. dallasg

    dallasg Thread Starter Moderator MASA Contributor

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    thanks for the reply...
    i heavily prefilter my water, filter socks, then through filter floss, then sediment chamber which is the cleaning i do in the sump
     
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