Return pump and one way valves for power cuts.

Discussion in 'Anything DIY Related' started by magman, 4 Jan 2010.

  1. magman

    magman

    Joined:
    31 Jul 2009
    Posts:
    2,144
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Richards Bay
    Hey all,

    I am keen on going closed loop, but want to run it from my return, I have been thinking of a high return system using the closed loop. but will those one way valves work in case of power cuts?
     
  2. AdS Guest




    to hide all adverts.
  3. lIghty

    lIghty

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Westville, Durban
    Not quite with you, but a CLS is usually plumbed with the inlet and outlet directly on the tank, from what I can understand you simply want to have your return pipe coming into your tank below water level?

    Here is the solution, the "Lighty Return" LOL (only thought of this when I tank was finnished:()

    I haven't tested the design although it will work, but you will just have to experiment with the hights of h1 and h2. The pipe of h1 does not have to be the same size of the main piping. Also, you could reduce the hight of h1 by placinga vacuum break (like those used on gysers or even a check valve - preverably plastic) on the top of the pipe, only allowing air to enter the amin junction when under vacuum. (hope that make sence?)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

    Joined:
    7 May 2007
    Posts:
    14,542
    Likes Received:
    285
    Location:
    Gonubie East London
    owing to a positive pressure going through the piping and being compounded by going semi reverse flow so to speak i cant see it working without a valve as stated the second problem i have is that the more "working" components the more likley the chance of a failure.. i tried something simular: pipe internal not external with a breather incorporating a check valve.. it worked for a short while but clogged up..

    i think the main problem is the dirt that forms in the pipes for this kind of idea thus providing the possibility of failure.
     
  5. lIghty

    lIghty

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Westville, Durban

    I have to disagree Leslie, or perhaps I don't understand quite understand you.:whistling:

    Simplified my system is nothing more than a standard return with the inlet below the water surface, which most of us have, so to stop the syphon effect when the power fails, we drill a small hole in the pipe just above the water level, so when power fails it sucks air, breaking the syphon correct?

    With the above agreed on, if you extend the inlet pipe from just below the surface right down to the bottom, it will have no effect, as the relative head hight is still the same, from the water level in the sump to the water level in the tank.

    Ok, when the return pump is running, usually it squirts water out of the "syphon break hole", so if you place a piece of air pipe into that hole (example sakes its the same size) water would then flow into the air pipe, but if you lift the air pipe you will eventually reach a point where the water will stop, this hight would be a reflection of the pressure inside the return piping. This pressure could be influenced by many factors, dia of piping, pump flow rate, if there is a nozzle on the output, live rock against the output, and so on.

    OK, arguments sakes lets say you had to lift the pipe 1m high, one could put a check valve just above where the air pipe connects, in the relaxed state, the valve would be open, allowing air to enter the plumbing and break the syphon, however when the pump is turned on, the water pressure would push up against the valve and shut it, therefore allowing you to have a "lower" pipe.

    In reality, I would not use a pipe smaller than 10~12mm for the "airline" breather pipe, and with a suitable check valve. You could even plumb the other side of the check valve to hang over the tank, incase it leaks it would just drip back into the tank, as a matter of fact, you wouldn't even have to have a check valve if you were prepared to have it "pee" into the tank.

    Hope this made sense, find it difficult to explain myself sometime.
     
  6. Andreas

    Andreas

    Joined:
    14 Feb 2008
    Posts:
    4,251
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Centurion
    Your idea does make sense Justin but you better hope you're home when that valve decides to get stuck and syphons out all the water in the display tank:(
     
  7. herkie

    herkie R.I.P.

    Joined:
    18 May 2007
    Posts:
    884
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    The Bay of KZN
    The same type of flow system caused me to be without a running tank for a long time. I am not saying don't do it, I would just like to ask you to be super critical on what you do. I had long vent pipes and a caboodle of other stuff and the system worked perfectly until that one power or pump failure when you can not see if something goes wrong. The flow in my tank was so nice, but I broke the whole thing down after some small irritating mishaps.

    You must also be careful not to have the hole at the bottom of the rear glass too close to the bottom where stresses are high and the glass is weakened by the hole in it.

    Another problem I had was sand being agitated by the good flow low down and it then land up in the return pumps intake. I found the in line filters used in micro irrigation systems to come in very handy in this case. I am in fact still using these in line filters on my pumps in the sump on the intake side and you cant believe all the muck it catches up that would have gone through your pumps otherwise.

    Best of luck and let us have some regular news as you progress, I will be following with great interest.
     
  8. lIghty

    lIghty

    Joined:
    3 Nov 2007
    Posts:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Westville, Durban
    LOL, I understand your concern, but like a said,if you use the "suitable" parts with regular maintenence it won't be a problem.

    Otherwise just leave the valve off and run the pee hole/s into the top of the tank, possible problem resolved?
     
  9. Andreas

    Andreas

    Joined:
    14 Feb 2008
    Posts:
    4,251
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Centurion
    I agree that would be the best option but regular cleaning of the pee holes would be required for this setup to work 100% without wet floors:p
     
  10. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

    Joined:
    11 Aug 2008
    Posts:
    23,163
    Likes Received:
    1,231
    Location:
    Centurion
    My solution.
    If I do not see the pee line, then it is time to clean things up. And snails can not block it.

    [​IMG]

    Micro irrigation connector screwed in. The inside is slanted, so depending how far you turn it, you will influence the pee distance.

    All it takes is a casual glance in the morning to see the pee, and I can go to work knowing my syphon will break immediatly when Eskom shows us his lack of power handling.

    A closed loop running from return pump is nothing else than a very strong return pump. You will increase the sump flowrate so fast that stuff you want to settle in or on your DSB will not have time to settle. (that is if you have a DSB). If your CLS pump is in your sump, I would put it into the very first chamber, so that the second and third chambers only have 3 to 5 times water turnover per hour. And then the normal return pump in the last chamber. But you have to have syphon breaks, and proper ones or you will have flooding.

    That said, if the pump for the return can be mounted outside of the water, then it will not heat up the water. Another benefit.

    If the CLS pump is mounted higher and as a proper CLS, with no syphon breaks, inlet and outlet under water, then you should not have any head pressure against the pump. Only those caused by elbows in the return piping. Then your CLS system will give you almost all the flow the pump is rated for. Why waste 30% (or whatever) lifting the water?

    Also keep in mind that pumps used for returns and CLS systems are all from 65W to 100W or over. Depending on what you want. And their flow is actually crappy taking the wattage used compared to powerheads and stream pumps.

    A CLS do have it advantages, like it is more anemone save, but that depends obviously on your intake design. But the running cost is just that much more.
     
  11. JD167

    JD167

    Joined:
    5 Apr 2008
    Posts:
    1,436
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Cape Town
    I also just drilled a small hole below the water line on my return outlets. Works great. This should work fine for a CLS.
     
Recent Posts

Loading...
Similar Threads - Return pump valves Forum Date
[wtd] Return pump Wanted Monday at 21:07
External Return Pump Pumps and Waterflow 11 Nov 2016
[wtd] DC return pump Wanted 29 Oct 2016
[wtd] Return pump Wanted 26 Aug 2016
[wtd] return pump Wanted 29 Jul 2016
[wtd] Return pump Wanted 30 Jun 2016
[wtd] Return pump 3000l or close Wanted 7 Jun 2016