1. sandlewood

    sandlewood

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    I have decided to install a remote DSB as my existing DSB in sump is to small. The remote DSB currently had its inlet via a pump in the return chamber of the sump. The water flows through the DSB which is in a plastic container above the sump (sump is outside) and back into the first chamber of the sump housing the skimmer.

    My concern is that the effectiveness of the DSB will be reduced because the water is flowing directly to or from the dispaly to the DSB and so the DSB is being fed partially filtered water all the time. Is thsi a factor?

    Also the additional pump required to feed the DSB has increased the through-flow in the sump and may effect the efficiency of the skimmer.

    What do you guys think?
     
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  3. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i am confused, the pump feeding the remote DSB is in the return chamber right? and returns to the first chamber which i assume is a skimmer chamber?

    If this is the configurtion then i see no problem at all, i would advise NOT feeding the DSB directly from the overflow as you ideally want the water to pass through either skimmer or ATS before going through a DSb, remote or not
     
  4. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Yes you got it right - from the return chamber of the sump (last chamber with the return pumps - one to DT and other to DSB) through the DSB and then back into the sump via the first chamber with skimmer.

    The DSB doesn't run in series but is rather a "loop" from the sump back to the sump.
     
  5. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    perfect in my opinion,

    not sure how your remote dsb is configured, but remember lateral flow is KEY to a dsb working effectively, perhaps post a pic or two for us, there are not many remote DSB setups on MASA and pics will help others thinking about doing this
     
  6. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Thanks Neil

    I will post a pic a bit later.
     
  7. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Here is a picture of my new sump configuration. Black container on top is the remote DSB. Water is pumped up on the right from the return chamber of the sump underneath, goes into the DSB on the right via a spreader bar setup inside the container, runs over the sand and out on the left down into the first chamber of the sump again.

    The return chamber contains two other pumps, the first being the main pump which pumps water from the return chamber through the wall on the right to the tank inside, then back via the overflow into the first chamber of the sump. The second pumps water through my chiller and into the tank, and back via the overflow to the first chamber and so on...


    [​IMG]
     
  8. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    The current sump is overly complicated as I had to separate it onto two to get it under my stand in the previous setup. I am thinking of simplifying this once the new DSB is mature by making it smaller without the existing small DSB, currently in the first chamber of the right hand compartment. What do you guys think?
     
  9. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Yup

    I think it will make a huge improvement to water quality. I take it you have read the calfo thread on RC.

    http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=595109

    Before i get full of assumptions please advise the reason for the remote DSB addition. You state that it is too small. I agree, but is it because of nitrate issues? or to increase stocking levels? etc.

    My personal opinion is that you keep the existing Refuge you call a DSB and run the Remote DSB purely as a DSB. But that depends on your reason for add it.

    Also a pic of the sand level and water height over the sand. and have you seeded it with sand from your Refuge. Sorry for all the questions but this info is important to give an opinion and options/advice.
     
  10. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Yes thanks, I did read the article.

    The issues for me has been slowly increasing nitrates. I think that the existing DSB/refuge is too small and is causing my problems, hence the addition of the remote. I have seeded it today from the existing one. The and is reggies play sand about 15cm deep with about another 15 cm of water flowing over the top.

    Perhaps I should keep the existing refuge in my new sum ? ie skimmer, refuge, return. What say you?
     
  11. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Good at least i am now on the same page as you.

    Ok setting up a RDSB to purely remove nitrate is very easy but a few rules need to be observed for best results.

    1. The depth of the gravel (Regies Play sand is Perfect) needs to be at least 200mm. The deeper the better.
    2. The level of the water flowing over the sand needs to be 20 - 30mm max.
    3. Flow over the Gravel needs to be slow but fast enough so that nothing can settle on top of the gravel.
    4. No pod's critters live sand need to be preset. So if you wanted to just use the rDSB to reduce Nitrates the seeding was not a good idea.

    a) If it were my system i would try and remove the gravel you seeded and put it back in the refuge.
    b) I would add more gravel so that the amount of water flowing over the gravel is shallower.
    c) Pay extra attention to the flow over the RDSB. Not so fast that it is DO saturated but fast and even enough to flow over the entire gravel surface.
    d) Put the cover on the container. The darkness helps with the denitrification.

    From what you have explained 150mm sand 150mm water and the flow all you have done is recreated a larger version of what you already have and it will most likely become a nutrient sink in time.

    You should start to see nitrate reduction in a a few weeks. Obviously water changes, skimming and current nitrate levels influence.
     
  12. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    [​IMG]

    OK I checked the level of the sand and its 17cm with the same amount of water over it. I will increase the sand to 20cm. The photo shows the current setup with spreader bar.
     
  13. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Looking good. Try and add sand nearly to the diffuser bar. Don't let the diffuser bar spray with pressure. Just let it distribute the water flow. Rem you do not want a high oxygen water flow. Just clean water flow.

    I see the bin has distorted with all the sand so the cover most probably will not fit. It is important to cover the DSB. Maybe cover with a bit of black plastic. You do not want light causing algae, cyano etc. and matter/dust falling into the DSB.
     
  14. sihaya

    sihaya

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    sandlewood-- I think you're fine. The sump certainly isn't going to filter everything out before the water gets to the DSB. Btw, why does your avatar look so familiar? lol ;-)
     
  15. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Its been a couple of weeks and things are settling nicely.
    I am bsuy with my new simpler sump and have basically decided on three chambers, skimmer, refugium, return chamber. I currently have live rock in a separate compartment in my existing setup and wll need to relocate this. Since I don't have a dedicated chamber I was wondering what to do with this. My options are:

    1. Leave it out
    2. Try and suspend in over the sand in the new refugium (messy and complicated)
    3. Reduce the size of the "sand" section of the new refuge and incorporate a chamber for the rock. This would reduce the sand footprint from 28cm x 50cm (current setuo) to 43cm x 30cm with a compartment for rock.

    I have a remote DSB pictured earlier so perhaps option 3 is best? What do you think?
     
  16. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    I will move the return from the remote plastic tub DSB to the chamber after the skimmer. Else you will skim out any beneficial pods, spawning evens or food released by the DSB. You should have that go back to the tank as fast as possible.

    Also you can add cheato above the sand, and use it as a DSB and refugium in one. Just add a light source. Can even install a Algae scrubber above DSB and let that drain ontop of the cheato above the DSB. Then cheato and scrubber will use the same light source.

    But because yours are outside, you will get a big problem with water top up, from evaporative cooling. Your heaters might even run on hot summer days. And the scrubber lights when running reverse cycle will have moths and other insects falling into the DSB.

    Would really be nice if you can put all of that into a small wendy house or garden shed cabinet type unit. Saw some a while back at Builders Warehouse that will do it.
     
  17. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Thanks Riaan

    With my new sump, I am planning to completely enclose it within the structure under the remote DSB, hence avoiding the moth and evapouration problem.

    What do you suggest with regards to live rock in the sump; would you suggest a separate chamber, albeit at the cost of some sand space in the refugium. I am running the remote DSB purely as a nitrate reducer and so it remains dark.
     
  18. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    If you do not have any cheato ot a algae scrubber, then you do not need any lights.

    Also the scrubber cooling is good, if you running hot lights and have cooling issues.

    A DSB must be as BIG as possible. And the sand give a lot more surface area for bacteria to live on then the live rock. Sure live rock can more easily support sponges. And Copepods need somewhere to hide.
    if not going cheato or scrubber:
    Your remote scrubber is too open for pods. Push 15mm conduit pipe pieces, 200mm into the remote DSB as pillars. Lay a piece of eggcrate on that and suspend your live rock on that. Cover the remote DSB then with whatever.
    If going cheato only.
    Put cheato with light source above remote DSB. Still needs to cover it.
    If cheato and scrubber
    Same as above with scrubber above cheato

    Question.
    What level is your Display tank compared to both sumps.

    Might be easier or simpler to swap top and bottom parts of sumps around. Let the current remote DSB outlet drop into small tank with return pump.
    And on top have skimmer and liverock chambers. Use gravity from Display to top sump. Gravity to scrubber. Scrubber drains onto DSB at same place as spraybar. Overflow to small tank. And returns.
     
  19. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Hi Riaan

    I want to leave the remote DSB (black container) as is (unlit) and reconfigure the bottom two compartments into one sump with three chambers as explained. The section of this bottom sump (middle compartment) will need to house the refugium (with or without liverock) and will have the ATS running overhead.

    My question is:

    Should I split this middle section into sand and liverock compartments or just have sand with liverock suspended over the sand, or just sand with no liverock? The sand will have chaeto on it regardless of liverock configuration and will have light from the ATS overhanging.

    This middle chamber is a limited space (430mm x 450mm) so I would like to make it as efficient as possible within the parameters of the remaining system i.e. remote DSB, Skimmer, ATS etc.
     
  20. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Are you going to replace the current 2 parts sump with one sump? Also looking to optimize space for Kalkwasser stirrer etc?

    You got the big DSB on top. So a big DSB below is not that crucial. Better layout and space and accesability are more important.

    So what is your main goal?
     
  21. sandlewood

    sandlewood Thread Starter

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    Yes, I want to optimize the space by replacing the two-part sump with one slightly shorter so that it can fit underneath and get fully enclosed.

    The way I see it:

    Split the middle chamber of the new sump in two, one section with sand and chaeto etc (300mm x 430mm), and the other for the existing live rock (150mm x 430mm) This divider will run at 90 degrees to the divider between chamber one and two.

    The return from the remote DSB will bypass chamber one and go into the live rock section.

    What do you think?
     
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