So when you doing a water change ?
Have not planned one yet...will let you know when!!!
Regular water changes?
- Thread starter inflames
- Start date
Have not planned one yet...will let you know when!!!
Hi Inflames - I know exactly where you come from, in asking this question. At a certain stage in my reefkeeping life, I too liked to learn more, by "challenging the system"....
This is my take on it:
Even though I DO have access to nearly free NSW, I too wanted to know "why"....
Now - I think there is one VERY VERY important lesson to be learnt from all of the responses:
1) until such time that one REALLY UNDERSTAND (and be honest with yourself - it is YOUR MONEY in the end, that's going into this tank, as well as YOUR lifestock, that might die if YOU make the incorrect decisions - not anyone else's) what's going on in your tank, and have learnt enough about the lifestock that you keep - it is FAR FAR FAR BETTER to indeed do regular water changes on your tank. At a certain stage you too will become "experienced enough" on your own tank, to learn to "read" your lifestock - and to see when THEY tell you (in their behaviour, etc) when you should be doing waterchanges....
2) IF you still need to ask this question - then please read point 1
I am not saying this in any way to be read in a negative light - but, I see a LOT of myself in my early years, in the way you post and ask questions.
Don't think that there's ANYTHING wrong with it - it is just a case of (my personal belief) your way of learning......
So - don't stop "challenging the system" - and I really hope that you get your answers quicker in these "challenges", rather than later......
OK - that said - my opinion of your question:
I too "experimented" in the past - by trying not to do water changes for a while....
I too "experimented" in the past - with difference types of lighting, and skimmers...
I too "experimented" in the past with different DIY methods of doing things...
In the end:
- I went out and got myself the really decent skimmer
- This decent skimmer, is FORCING me to constantly "add" water to my 2 metre reef tank, because it is such a beast, that it removes between 25litres and 50 litres of water from my tank (which I have to keep on replacing with sea water)
- I ended up with 3 x 150 watt metal halide units and 4 actinic/blue T5's over my tank...
My "experiments" cost me money - and in the end I did in ANY CASE what everyone else suggested.....
Because that was the "right" way of doing things.
Hope you can learn from other's experiences too..
This is my take on it:
Even though I DO have access to nearly free NSW, I too wanted to know "why"....
Now - I think there is one VERY VERY important lesson to be learnt from all of the responses:
1) until such time that one REALLY UNDERSTAND (and be honest with yourself - it is YOUR MONEY in the end, that's going into this tank, as well as YOUR lifestock, that might die if YOU make the incorrect decisions - not anyone else's) what's going on in your tank, and have learnt enough about the lifestock that you keep - it is FAR FAR FAR BETTER to indeed do regular water changes on your tank. At a certain stage you too will become "experienced enough" on your own tank, to learn to "read" your lifestock - and to see when THEY tell you (in their behaviour, etc) when you should be doing waterchanges....
2) IF you still need to ask this question - then please read point 1
I am not saying this in any way to be read in a negative light - but, I see a LOT of myself in my early years, in the way you post and ask questions.
Don't think that there's ANYTHING wrong with it - it is just a case of (my personal belief) your way of learning......
So - don't stop "challenging the system" - and I really hope that you get your answers quicker in these "challenges", rather than later......
OK - that said - my opinion of your question:
I too "experimented" in the past - by trying not to do water changes for a while....
I too "experimented" in the past - with difference types of lighting, and skimmers...
I too "experimented" in the past with different DIY methods of doing things...
In the end:
- I went out and got myself the really decent skimmer
- This decent skimmer, is FORCING me to constantly "add" water to my 2 metre reef tank, because it is such a beast, that it removes between 25litres and 50 litres of water from my tank (which I have to keep on replacing with sea water)
- I ended up with 3 x 150 watt metal halide units and 4 actinic/blue T5's over my tank...
My "experiments" cost me money - and in the end I did in ANY CASE what everyone else suggested.....
Because that was the "right" way of doing things.
Hope you can learn from other's experiences too..
Thanks for the input Jacquesb,
I appreciate the honesty and hope that in years to come that I will be able to look back and my "experiments" and "questioning" with pride and with it not to costing me as much as you!:razz: What you have said in point 1 is what I am aiming to achieve!
It is perhaps my way of learning, and thats what I want to do...LEARN!! All the "Guru's" on this site were also once newbies and learnt along the way from the Guru's at that stage when they were newbies! I 1st and foremost want to make sure that the livestock I keep are happy and healthy...we have whipped them out of their natural environment for our own pleasure...not theirs!! I am questioning the WAY we keep them happy and the science behind the reef in our living rooms. If I understand this better then I can care for them better...If we cannot afford to then rather leave it to those who can afford to!
It also means that I must have the knowledge and understanding on the way we keep our tanks healthy, within our budgets... If I won the lotto then the cost would be of no concern, but I think that more than 90% of the guys on this forum work within a budget and dont through endless amounts of cash at their systems!
Do all the guys use the best, most expensive salt? the best, most expensive skimmers, the best calc reactors, the best lighting and the list goes on... some yes...but the majority not! We do the best we can on our individual budget! There are allot of ways of enjoying this hobby and keeping a healthy tank with additives that we buy at our pharmacy or supermarkets (as apposed to spending 20 times the amount for the same thing at our LFS) that do exactly the same thing! I initially went out and spent allot of cash of stuff like this before finding MASA and learning of the cheaper alternatives that do the exact same thing!!
I think that more research is needed from my side to understand water changes and the reasons before "experimenting" without them or limiting them! Thats why I possed the question to begin with!! So again... thanks for your input!
When I get to the stage that I REALLY understand our hobby...I will still learn something new!!
What was best 15 years ago, is now old news!!This has really been an interesting thread and one that is worth while as it realy sparks debate.
My take on the subject is i fully agree with Bob in that it is a must do for all newbies. I have always been an avid believer in water changes but over the last year or so with business pressures being what they are today, i have tended to neglect my system so have only done about 2 water changes in the last year. I will say that there seems to be no adverse affects on the system and all, live stock is thriving and water is crystal clear. I know DragonReef is going down the same path at the moment and also has had no ill effects. But again this is not something i would recommend.
Now i hear the argument here from both sides and can see Inflames playing 'devils advocate' here. The one thing that always gets to me is the blind faith that everybody has in salt mixes, i hear the argument that the salt adds trace elements etc, but in what quantities....??? There was a comparison done some years ago with about 10 salt brands compared to natural sea water and the results were frightening to say the least, will see if i can still find them.
My take on the subject is i fully agree with Bob in that it is a must do for all newbies. I have always been an avid believer in water changes but over the last year or so with business pressures being what they are today, i have tended to neglect my system so have only done about 2 water changes in the last year. I will say that there seems to be no adverse affects on the system and all, live stock is thriving and water is crystal clear. I know DragonReef is going down the same path at the moment and also has had no ill effects. But again this is not something i would recommend.
Now i hear the argument here from both sides and can see Inflames playing 'devils advocate' here. The one thing that always gets to me is the blind faith that everybody has in salt mixes, i hear the argument that the salt adds trace elements etc, but in what quantities....??? There was a comparison done some years ago with about 10 salt brands compared to natural sea water and the results were frightening to say the least, will see if i can still find them.
Do you use NSW for your water changes Alan ?
That i do as i am lucky enough to live close enough to the ocean.
Here is a link to one of the tests done [not the one i was looking for], but this was many years ago, the scary result is the trace element table.
About.com: http://web.archive.org/web/20010303215133/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp
Here is a link to one of the tests done [not the one i was looking for], but this was many years ago, the scary result is the trace element table.
About.com: http://web.archive.org/web/20010303215133/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp
Hi Alan,
I am glad you are enjoying the thread... me to!!
:razz:
Interesting that you mentioned the trace elements on the salt we buy!! would be great to see those results! This is one of my points...if we dont really know what quatities the are added, and we cant really test for their consumption, then how do we determine when a water change "becomes" nessesary? And surely the difference in the consumption of a FOWLR or Reef differs!! Lets be honest here..that I amsure that we have all at one stage neglected our systems and not done that regular water change or maintenance with no ill effect to the system...Does that maybe suggest something?!So You think if this option is available to you that you should use NSW instead of synthetic salt ? Just your opinion Alan.
I have always been a strong believer in NSW and have always run my system on NSW. Back in the days salt mixes were created for hobbyiests that had no acess to NSW and some how it became the be all and end all and was percieved as better than the real thing........
If I had access to NSW I would use it in a shot.
Generally trace elements in salts are got there as by products of the main ingredients, and it is why they can swing wildly between brands, and batches within even supposedly stable well respected brands.
It can look scary, but we know so little about the trace elements and what they all do that we just seem to suck it up.
Generally trace elements in salts are got there as by products of the main ingredients, and it is why they can swing wildly between brands, and batches within even supposedly stable well respected brands.
It can look scary, but we know so little about the trace elements and what they all do that we just seem to suck it up.
My Opinion is with a heartbeat to use NSW...That's what we want! but some of us stay to far to pop into the local beach and get 1 000 000 000 000 000 litres of free salt water! Mixing salt with RO when you stay at the sea?!?!? I am ROFLMAO!!!!:razz::razz::razz::razz:
Hi i'm falcon and i havent done a water change in over four years....sob...there i said it.
seriously i havent besides one about a year back but that was 150lt in a 680lt system after my nephew emptied ink and a tin of fish food etc etc etc into my sump,most of my corals bleached out and alot died but hey i gave the system a few months without water changes and everything started thriving again.
however its a fine line and you have to know what you doing,dose certain things at certain times to replenish.i found tropic marin bio calcuim to replenish pretty much everything.when i used kalk last year it resulted in more work as my magnesuim levels etc started dropping and i had to also manually add iodine.due to low mg the coraline slowed down alot so i'm going back to tropic marine bio calcuim which contains trace elements as well.
just this week i had my tank drilled as i got tired of airbubbles getting caught in my siphon overflow so i used the opportunity to do a 250lt water change will let you guys know later if anything dies from a 40% water change after 4 years....
yes for newbies it is true that water changes are the safest especially with what is perfect(ie NSW:yeahdude
...BUT INFLAMES i can see that you are willing to give this the effort and thought it deserves to run a tank without water changes so go ahead and do it man
Hi i'm falcon and i havent done a water change in over four years....sob...there i said it.
seriously i havent besides one about a year back but that was 150lt in a 680lt system after my nephew emptied ink and a tin of fish food etc etc etc into my sump,most of my corals bleached out and alot died but hey i gave the system a few months without water changes and everything started thriving again.
however its a fine line and you have to know what you doing,dose certain things at certain times to replenish.i found tropic marin bio calcuim to replenish pretty much everything.when i used kalk last year it resulted in more work as my magnesuim levels etc started dropping and i had to also manually add iodine.due to low mg the coraline slowed down alot so i'm going back to tropic marine bio calcuim which contains trace elements as well.
just this week i had my tank drilled as i got tired of airbubbles getting caught in my siphon overflow so i used the opportunity to do a 250lt water change will let you guys know later if anything dies from a 40% water change after 4 years....
yes for newbies it is true that water changes are the safest especially with what is perfect(ie NSW:yeahdude
HA HA HA HA...I knew you dudes would come out the closet sooner or later
!! LOL!!!Anyway Falcon... tell me about your dosing and monitoring regime please!! I am really intrested to find out how you monitor and maintain getting the good stuff in and the bad stuff out! Is the TM Bio Calcium all you use and how often? Do you find that it costs more or less the same as buying salt and mixing it with RO? So in your system you found that Kalkwasser dosing precipitated the Mg out your system? Do you do regular testing of your levels? Calc, Mg?!?! have you dosed Iodine? How much evaporation do you have to top up with RO?
Absolutely, but these things are very difficult not to accumulate in the mixes as they come with the main ingredients as trace. The manufacturers brag about the trace ellements in their mixes. Truth is they're there because they can't or won't (for costs sake) get rid of them.
Hi i'm falcon and i havent done a water change in over four years....sob...there i said it.
seriously i havent besides one about a year back but that was 150lt in a 680lt system after my nephew emptied ink and a tin of fish food etc etc etc into my sump,most of my corals bleached out and alot died but hey i gave the system a few months without water changes and everything started thriving again.
however its a fine line and you have to know what you doing,dose certain things at certain times to replenish.i found tropic marin bio calcuim to replenish pretty much everything.when i used kalk last year it resulted in more work as my magnesuim levels etc started dropping and i had to also manually add iodine.due to low mg the coraline slowed down alot so i'm going back to tropic marine bio calcuim which contains trace elements as well.
just this week i had my tank drilled as i got tired of airbubbles getting caught in my siphon overflow so i used the opportunity to do a 250lt water change will let you guys know later if anything dies from a 40% water change after 4 years....
yes for newbies it is true that water changes are the safest especially with what is perfect(ie NSW:yeahdude
:nono: Dont encourage him. We have taken nearly 3 pages to convince him its the right thing to do. Now this thread will be endless.
Absolutely, but these things are very difficult not to accumulate in the mixes as they come with the main ingredients as trace. The manufacturers brag about the trace ellements in their mixes. Truth is they're there because they can't or won't (for costs sake) get rid of them.
Alan,
The info on trace elements is frightning to say the least!! OK...so now that we have established NEVER to trust ANY salt that we mix with water changes!!!
and we think we are doing a "good" thing....
The info on trace elements is frightning to say the least!! OK...so now that we have established NEVER to trust ANY salt that we mix with water changes!!!
and we think we are doing a "good" thing....