QT / Copper

Discussion in 'Quarantine Tanks, sick fish, QT corals' started by mytank, 29 Jan 2012.

  1. mytank

    mytank

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    So I have had enough with fighting WS with bows and arrows. I know things might become a bit tricky in the long run with certain things but today I went and spent some cash.

    Bought a 3ft - 920l x 360h x 320width water height is sitting at 280.2mm

    I am going to buy some 110m PVC tomorrow for some hiding areas. Do I really need any lighting here. It gets A LOT of natural sunlight during the day.

    I am not sure if the no lighting helps with WS or not.

    I am going to go the copper route, there just isn't anything else that I can find after researching that will KILL the WS. The bucket method works YES for sure but I would stress the crap out the fish.

    So there is A LOT of debate around if you can remove the copper from the tank afterwards or not. I have read some new research and chatting to @Adriaan if you run a good carbon reactor in the tank for say a week afterwards it removes the copper trace elements in the tank.

    So some questions:

    All the water in this tank was made Saturday - Salinity is sitting at 1025 and no Phos, nitrate, nitrite, ammonia etc. The salt I used was Red Sea Coral Pro salt.


    Question

    Do I catch the fish - drip aclimatize him for 1 hour and add him in, is that the correct procedure?

    How long AFTER the fish is in the tank do I start with the treatment.


    Here is my dilemma - REMOVE ALL THE FISH - that's like 25 fish and chuck them all into the 3ft tank? Wouldn't that stress them EVEN FURTHER by:

    1. The catching them stress
    2. 25 fish in a 3f tank?

    The first fish going into the QT will be my fav fish my Powder blue - which is in a "QT" right now (it's my old DT which I am using with Herbatana - no help in THIS CASE not saying it doesn't work).

    @Achilles - My theory is right now he has a bad bout of WS, he is FAT FAT FAT eating like a little machine but has TONS of WS. My THEORY is to get him rid of the WS in the copper, get him healthy, boost his immune system then introduce him into the DT. What do you think :)

    So some pics of the QT:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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  3. mytank

    mytank Thread Starter

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    Just to add a few things after reading some replies from @Nemos Janitor on the this thread. The copper treatment I am considering is from Waterlife called Cuprazin link found here.

    The test kit (@Nemos Janitor reading your post said to make sure you using the right test kit for the right type of copper I am not sure here would appreciate the guidance) - salifert copper test kit found here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  4. Yuri

    Yuri

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    To get copper to work it must be used for 4 weeks
    Sum fish like small angels you can not use copper on

    If you put a fish in new water it must be aclimeticed to the new water
    Start after the fish is eating good only with copper

    All the fish must be removed from the display tank then it must be empty for at least 4 weeks
     
  5. mytank

    mytank Thread Starter

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    You think it's a good idea to put all the fish (25 of them) into a hospital tank this size?
     
  6. Yuri

    Yuri

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    You will have to get a extra tank or bigger
     
  7. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Hmmm.... not sure exactly what the questions are here. Thought they were covered in the threads.

    Some thoughts.

    What is "Cryptocaryon irritans" ? Answer, It is a common ciliate. (serious pathergen)

    What do Ciliates eat? Answer, Bacteria, algae, yeast, detritus particles and dissolved organics.

    How to kill it? Answer,
    Bow and arrow maybe? hmmm.... No
    Poison it with copper and or drugs? Err... yes would work but what about the consequences?
    Starve it of food? Hmmm... That would mean removing all the things it eats to survive.
    Separation ? Now here we have a winner. If we can separate the Pathogens from the fish or the fish from the pathogens, Job done.

    It all sounds very easy. and it is. Don't get "irritans" in your tank. Separate it from the fish before you add the fish to your display. LOL

    To fix an infection remove the fish and proceed with the separation process.

    Will the tank become WS free after keeping it without fish for 21 days? IMO "NO". Why? i believe ciliate cultures can be kept alive by bacteria and other food sources.
     
  8. mytank

    mytank Thread Starter

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    Ok, so remove the infected fish and proceed to the separation process. So let's look at that some questions:

    1. Removing just the infected fish won't it just get reinfected when you add it back to the "infected" DT?

    2. Separation process so let's look at the ones I know of:

    2.1 Copper - but apparently this has side effects and or death if not dosed correctly.
    2.2 you have another cocktail in the other thread - does it kill the WS like copper does? It seems like a cocktail can you get it all in your local FS? how long do you does your fish for.
    2.3 so Hypo treatment, this assumes a very healthy fish to try this on. What I don't get is fresh water fish also get wS so.... You see success with this?

    So what period must the DT run fallow then or is the only way to remove everything and bleach the tank?

    Thanks for your time @Nemos Janitor
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  9. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Lets compare this scenario to one of a fish tank. hypothetically.

    Just got married, moved into a brand new house. Super clean with brand new furniture including bedding and carpets.

    Hmmm... the :jiggy::Randy-git:wants a puppy dog. One that will sleep on the bed. Yes it is so cute and full of fleas. But so adorable and cuddly. You give in and the puppy comes home and ends up on the bed. All hunky dory for a night or two until an itch or two. The puppy gets a powder brushed into its coat that was recommended by the LPS. The puppy stops scratching but the bed you sleep in still has fleas in it and it irritates. So out comes the fumigators and a few grand later, bed, carpets and loungers are sorted. No more fleas.
    Two weeks later. "Darling, please phone the fumigators there are still fleas in this bed."
    After a few heated arguments with the original fumigators and other companies the situation has not been resolved. The wheel go's round and round and round....The story continues......starting to sound familiar...



    What do we learn from the above?

    1) If we did not bring the puppy home we would not have a flea infestation.

    2) If we had QT the puppy and made sure it had no fleas before we brought it home we would not have a flea infestation.

    3) By bringing this puppy home everything has got fleas, beds, carpets and other pets etc...

    4) No matter how hard one tries there will always be fleas to contend with once introduced. Best to just manage them.
     
  10. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    By separation i mean 3 bucket system.
     
  11. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Rather bucket your fish. Although 25 fish will be a problem.

    Get yourself some tubs from Plasticland. (4 or 6 depending on size. At least 40L or bigger). You need 2 tubs per group of fish.
    Rinse with tap water and vinegar, then with RO.

    No need to do all the fish in one go, catch 12, place 6 per tub. Keep fish in bucket max 2 days at a time, move them 5 times.

    Thereafter move them to temporary setup. Then do the remaining fish.
    With not a lot of hiding spots, fish will be a lot less in the mood to fight. But cover the tubs, no point in having healthy fish but a little bit dried out.

    Important factor is that your display must be kept empty for at least 6 weeks. Push the temperature up to 28. To speed up the life cycle.

    The temporary accommodation must be big enough keep all 25 fish for the period between the bucket process, and the lapse of the 6 weeks.

    I found that using a small small glass tank, to catch the fish in while in the buckets, moving them over to other tank WITHOUT EXPOSING THEM TO AIR. Prevents them from too much stress. I got one of those 100*250mm tanks. Just keep it sideways and chase the fish in. Do not scrape the bottom of the tub. No problem in moving water over to the other tub. The Tomonts is sticking to the bottom or on any other hard surface. That is why you cannot move pumps or heaters to the other tub.
     
    Last edited: 30 Jan 2012
  12. rakabos

    rakabos

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    If it were me....

    Get a bigger, separate hospital tank, or a second one like what u have. Raise the temp to 28C. Drop the salinity (sorry SG :p ) to 1.016 or so. Leave them in there for 6 weeks and get them back into the DT. You may lose a fish or 2, but you will almost certainly lose some with the associated stress of the other methods.

    I know its a bit of hope and wait method, but in my experience it works, especially the hypo salinity bit.

    My $0.02
     
  13. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Sorry will not work 100%
    Hypo do not kill all the Stomonts. Reinfection can still occur. Need to ensure that by the time the Stomonts hatch, there are no host fish around. So either remove the Stomonts (all of them) or remove the fish. That is the basic concept of the bucket method. As the Trophonts falls of the fish, they attached to the substrate or bottom to become Tomonts. New bucket, no Tomonts.

    So you do not want to increase the temperature when using the buckets. Only increase the display tank temperature. Keep all your CUC in there, and feed them. Obviously not a lot.
     
  14. magman

    magman

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    I prefer copper, but only the seachem cupramine, it is a non chelated copper, and is very safe on the fish, and I always run it at half the recomended doses, which is enough to kill all diseases. It is labled as being safe for even copper sensitive fish.

    Just a big warning, if you decide to go the copper route, never change the salinity, as the ph's will change and so will the strength of the copper will change accordingly.

    I would say a 3 foot is a bit small for all those fish, rather use a bigger tank, and water change are critical for water conditions, when you add new water, you want to add the correct amount of copper for the water you replacing.
     
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  15. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    The original question was about Copper. This is what we know about copper and it's treatment.

    Copper and Formaldehyde are two of the best (Most effective) drug/poison to kill irritans. In the case of copper, a dose over 0.25ppm is required when the parasite is in the tomite stage.

    Copper is toxic to fish but most fish can withstand a dosage of copper that is less than 0.50ppm.

    This means that for copper to be effective against irritans the copper level should be somewhere between 0.25 and 0.5 ppm at all times during treatment.

    Considering that the life cycle of irritans is anything from 7 to 28 days it also means that the copper treatment will need to be maintained for at least 28 days to be sure the parasite is killed.

    Most authors on the subject of treating irritans recommend a copper level between 0.25 and 0.30 for a minimum of 14 days but experience from my side is one needs to treat for at least 28 days. This may be due to the copper level dropping below 0.25ppm

    So if one does decide to go the copper route, then their are two products that i have used with success. Cuprazin and Proto marin intensive. I also use the seachem copper test kit to maintain copper levels. this one. Seachem. MultiTest: Copper
     
  16. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Know your enemy

    [​IMG]
     
  17. mytank

    mytank Thread Starter

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    @RiaanP I will be honest with you the bucket method sounds - good in theory but absolutely complex in practice.

    Now I am not saying I WONT consider it but here are some thoughts:

    That shouldn't be a problem - So just a air stone and a heater?

    Question 1: Wont two tangs absolutely destroy each other in such a small bucket (they already not best friends)

    Question 2: So every TWO days move them from bucket 1 to bucket 2 then b2 to b3, then b3 to b4 and finally to b5?

    Might answer the will the fish fight.... by covering you mean with a towel or something?

    Yup I will host them for 6 weeks - I hate this dam WS.

    What do you think about that 3ft and a 2ft - it would fit in the stand below the 3ft. I just don't have space for another 3ft.

    I didn't know about the AIR = Stress thank you!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  18. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Last edited: 30 Jan 2012
  19. mytank

    mytank Thread Starter

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    @magman - I have been reading quite a few posts out there and a few have your system in place and your experiences.

    I can fit another 2ft under the 3ft would that help for the 25 fish?

    How about I use egg crate to split the tanks into 1ft per few fish, have to split the tangs?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  20. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Only 2 buckets needed.
    Rinse the empty bucket in tapwater, then pour some boiling kettle water. Then rinse with RO. Put it outside in the sun to dry. Try to survive that WS

    Only thing truly effective in killing stomonts is to dry them out.
     
  21. mytank

    mytank Thread Starter

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    @rakabos - did it work for you? I have researched this and read mixed reviews....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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