Probiotics/effective Microbes

Discussion in 'Water Parameters and Additives' started by Tony, 31 Jan 2009.

  1. Tony

    Tony

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    Hi guys. I have this product which is microbes kept in a stock solution. These guys are used to clean up dams and heavily in the koi industry to clean up nitrates and phosphates as well as reduce pollutants in water. It can also be used in salt water. I have been using this on my tank for about a month now with what I must call good results. I have used Prodibio in the past but haven't added this for about 2 months now as I cannot get it. My nitrates are still low as well as my phosphates and I don't have a DSB or any denitrification device. My only filtration is a skimmer and some filter floss.

    I keep SPS corals as well as some LPS ans softies in a 700 litre tank.

    What I would like to do is use it on a tank with high nitrates and phosphates to monitor the progress in a nutrient rich system. SO I would like a guinea pig or two. It is safe and I haven't had any problems in my system with all those delicate SPS's.

    This stuff is cheap as chips and I really think this could benefit our hobby. I am in the Honeydew, Johannesburg are and would like to hook up with a fellow reefer to try the stuff out on a problem tank.

    PM me if anyone is interested
     
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  3. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    as soon as my mini coral farm is up and running i am keen to try it
     
  4. Tony

    Tony Thread Starter

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    Cool. BTW, did you get the tank home OK???
     
  5. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    yip, all is good, going to make it my main tank and swop it with my 4ft :)
     
  6. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    Tony - perhaps you can either let me know where I can get some in Cape Town, or send me some of this stuff, that I can try it out? I will use it in my 1.2 metre sea horse tank.
     
  7. Tony

    Tony Thread Starter

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    The guy is only in Jo'burg and not sure how to get it down there. I really would like to try it on a "dirty", high nutrient tank with hair algae, cyano and all the other nasties, although I still have zero nitrates and .1ppm phosphate.
     
  8. scubaninja

    scubaninja

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    my 1.2m FO has a healthy patch of algae on the glass, i could try it here if you want. i was going to give it a furious clean but i guess i could hold off on that
     
  9. crispin

    crispin

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    effective microbes being EM's, sold by emrosa?
     
  10. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    OK - no problems Tony. It's just that I don't really have the absolute best filtration on my sea horse tank. My reeftank has AWESOME filtration, but my sea horse tank not (not even a sump) ;)

    Cheers mate.
     
  11. crispin

    crispin

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    ill find all the organic research u like on this stuff for u, i know it oh to well. just do me a fav jaques and dont use it on ure tank, i like those pony's way too much.

    out of interest tony do u actually know what u are putting into that tank? ever found out?
     
  12. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    LOL! OK Cool Crispin - many thanks man!
     
  13. Tony

    Tony Thread Starter

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    GO to Lindros.co.za and see if the guy can send it to CT. It's about R60 rand a litre. I'm not to sure how much it costs to ship it and if he ships it at all.

    Crispin. THe articles on the web site breaks it down into what goes into the products.

    Mechanisms of Action for LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4

    Background

    In many targeted environments, particularly those which have been treated with ozidizers, the presence of odour (including ammonia and hydrogen sulfide), high COD, high BOD and large quantities of pathogenic microbes is due to overabundance of foodstuffs which support the growth of undesirable microbes and the concomitant production of toxic and odoriferous compounds by these microbes, and to the following related (and often causative) factors:
    [​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Insufficient presence or total absence of the appropriate microbes which can digest the biomass in a safe and efficient manner[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Absence or deficiency of key nutrients, minerals and trace elements needed to allow beneficial and appropriate microbes to multiply and propagate in the waste material to allow digestion[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Presence of substances which are rather toxic to beneficial microbes and thus inhibit or entirely halt their growth; these toxic substances can include powerful oxidants, toxic oxyanions of heavy metals, and toxic organic products of putrefaction[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Extremely low DO and high BOD and COD, which further limit those beneficial microbes which are obligate aerobes or facultative aerobes, and which will encourage undesirable putrefactive microbes.[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Over-proliferation of undesirable aerobic and anaerobic microbes, which not only out-compete beneficial microbes, but which create an environment inhospitable to most beneficial microbes.[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Notable absence of microbes which might digest the pathogenic microbes and which might provide competitive exclusion[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
    Basics of LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 Technology

    Please remember that a glossary of terms used herein may be found at the end of the document.
    The basic LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 technology is a mixed synergistic and metabiotic microbial consortium consisting of at least 20 naturally occurring and beneficial microbes from across at least three genera. This beneficial and metabiotic microbial consortium can function effectively in a wide range of aerobic and anaerobic conditions, and across a wide range of pH. Many of the microbes in the consortium exhibit pronounced antioxidative (aka reducing) and syntropic (aka negentropic) effects, performing microbial reduction (as in oxidation-reduction) and also producing numerous reducing (aka antioxidative) compounds which have marked effects upon many substances found in waste streams. These latter compounds also exhibit massive deodorizing effect, due largely to their chemical reducing action, as most undesirable odours are caused by oxidative compounds which are readily neutralized by the antioxidative compounds found in LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4.
    It is important to note that several products in the LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 range, particularly some which are frequently used in waste and sludge treatment, such as LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 liquid, contain not merely the beneficial microbial consortium in a propagatable culture, but rather also contain a number of substances which are highly important in helping the microbial consortium to propagate and to become established in waste media; some of these special substances are:
    • <LI class=MsoNormal>Minerals and trace elements -- these help to nourish the beneficial LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 microbes and other beneficial naturally-occurring wild microbes which will eventually form an even larger synergistic and metabiotic consortium in the waste stream. <LI class=MsoNormal>Nutrients and trace nutrients, including selected carbon sources which selectively nourish the beneficial LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 microbes and other beneficial naturally-occurring wild microbes which will eventually form an even larger synergistic and metabiotic consortium in the waste stream. <LI class=MsoNormal>Organic antioxidative (aka reducing) substances such as quinones, anthocyanins, polyphenols, flavonoids and carotenoids – these were produced largely via Lindros SOLUTIONS 4 microbial fermentation under controlled conditions, and help to not only neutralize many toxic and noxious substances (including gases) found in waste, but also help to create in the waste stream a beneficial environment where the Lindros SOLUTIONS 4 microbial consortium may become quickly established and assure competitive advantage over undesirable (e.g., putrefactive or pathogenic) microbes. <LI class=MsoNormal>“Electron shuttles” and “electron relay” substances carriers such as quinones, ubiquinone, ATP, NADH, bacteriochlorophylls, microbial cytochromes, etc.; these assist in drastically shifting the chemistry and microbial balance of the waste stream and solids. <LI class=MsoNormal>Unique soluble organic electron-shuttling compounds which enable catalytic conversion of oxidative toxins, commonly found in sludge, via facilitated reduction (redox) reactions. This allows breakdown by reduction (redox) of many toxic and hard-to-remediate substances which can ordinarily become problematic in waste streams. Some common electron shuttles or electron relays are quiniones, ubiquinone (COQ10), soluble microbial humic substances and certain organic acids such as malic acid and malates.
    • Reducing agents, including low molecular weight and very low molecular weight antioxidants, including simple dielectric anionic hydrides and atomic hydrogen, both of which offer strong reducing (redox) power for neutralization of hard-to-remediate substances often found in waste streams. The presence of these simple dielectric anionic hydrides and atomic hydrogen (the latter produced by some of the phototrophic microbes in LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 products) may often be evidenced by downward shifts toward the reducing range of measures such as ORP (oxidation reduction potential) and the relative hydrogen score (aka rH2 or rH score, computed from pH and ORP) of waste liquids. These substances act as powerful reducing agents to reduce oxidative toxic substances and break up clumped bulked sediment consisting largely of acidic oxidative end-products.
    It is worth noting the beneficial microbes in LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 also produce considerable quantities of the above-named substances listed in numbered list items #3 through #6 as the microbes propagate in the waste stream and sludge; these nutrients, factors and co-factors are a very important vehicle for many of the changes rendered by these LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 products.
    Typical Primary and Secondary Mechanisms of Pathogen Reduction
    This section will delineate some of the most common primary and secondary mechanisms of pathogen reduction by regular inoculation of the targeted environment with LINDROS SOLUTIONS 4 liquids.
    Primary modalities will usually include:
    [/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Gross modification of wastewater via reduction of COD, BOD, ammonia, sulfides, mercaptans, aldehydes, phosphate levels and nitrate levels, and increase in DO, leading to an environment inhospitable to many pathogens[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Modification of environmental factors such as redox potential (ORP), pH, relative hydrogen score (rH2), levels of nutrient minerals and trace elements, relative position of wastewater microenvironment along aerobic-anaerobic spectrum[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Biotransformation of foodstuffs which would otherwise have served as nutrients for undesirable microbes via digestion and chemical reduction (redox reaction)[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Microbial competitive exclusion via competition for food sources and establishment of dominance by dominant species of microbes, offering entrainment of many other wild microbe species present, partly via nurturance and metabiotic activity and partially via the effects of microbial quorum sensing[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

    Secondary modalities will usually include:
    [/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Modification of microenvironment via minerals, trace elements and reducing (antioxidative) compounds found in Lindros SOLUTIONS 4 liquid and reducing compounds (i.e., polyphenols, flavonoids, anthocyanins, arotenoids, uibquinone, very low molecular weight hydrogen-based antioxidants) produced by the beneficial microbes found in Lindros SOLUTIONS 4 liquid when growing in the waste stream.[/FONT][​IMG][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Providing foodstuffs and environment conducive to growth of beneficial microbes, and manipulating nutrients and microenvironment to provide suboptimal conditions for survival of pathogenic microbes.[/FONT]
     
  14. Tony

    Tony Thread Starter

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    I've been using it for over two months now with no adverse affect on my tank which I have 23 SPS colonies, LPS's and softies. I haven't done a water change in over a month, don't have a DSB or denitrator, just a skimmer. I still have no nitrates and 0.1ppm of phosphates so the stuff must be working. I add 5ml per 700 litres every week.
     
  15. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Something sounds a bit odd about this stuff. there are alot of big words that are used in the wrong place.
    I have a degree in microbiology/biotechnology and during my Honours did work on probiotics for the aquaculture industry.
    Why is this stuff so cheap and where is the scientific research to back up the claims? I would not add this stuff to my tank without knowing how he makes the liquid. A better description of what bacteria are in it would also be nice. Saying things like "cultures contain at least 2 or three species of PNSB" leads me to believe that this stuff doesnt come from a lab and that there is going to be huge variation between batches. [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][/FONT]
     
  16. crispin

    crispin

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    sorry i didn’t read that much of that, ive heard most of it before. both Allan Rosenberg and Thomas Linders (a.k.a lindross) have spread the stuff as far as they can. Indeed you might know what goes into the stuff, but do you know what comes out of it? Have you taken any trouble at all to figure out which microbes and how much molasses and derivatives you are actually putting INTO your system...not what they put into stock em's?

    i know of 7 organic farmers in sa who sear the stuff was the primary cause to the loss of their soil nutrition. Perhaps call a few cattle farmers in Winterton and ask them what they think of the effect of molasses (as in the chemical concoction found in South Africa) has on their animals, if you feel up to it you could also contact Onderstapoort and see what their findings were on the chemicals of mollases.

    but skip all that, get hold of WITS department of microbiology, collen streyker i think the fellas name was, and ask them what they found out about EM's. If you still want a few more leads, Holland has chapter and verse as to why Essential Microbes an-aerobically produced is harmful to microbial life.

    that section of the destruction of microbial life due to (primarily, but not solely) lactic acid bacillus and ecoli (yes you are putting lots of that into your tank, but you know that already I hope?) will lead to a destruction of most of the aerobic microbes in your live rock. As that’s the 'lungs' of your system its fairly close to putting your mouth over an exhaust and inhaling it for a period of 20 minutes at a time. Might not kill you straight away, but it will get you in the end.

    The anerobic aspect of EM's production, coupled by the low PH, the chemical concoction and sugars it contains its adding stuff to the system that will in my opinion be very harmful to the bacteria in the system, and once damaging to that system also most likely feed nuisance algae’s. It’s a disaster waiting to happen. Will happen slowly, but it will get you.
     
  17. crispin

    crispin

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    intrestingly enough after 5 scientific study's that i have read from around the globe, EU, america and acandinavia in particular ahve never found 10 microbes in the end sollution, specifically due to the collinisation of one species at optimum (to that species) conditions, which vary all the time from batch to batch and thus are never consistant with the end product.

    the microbes are bad news.....but go find out about the inerts (the carriers) and stuff that they use to feed the microbes. Also find out what the SG is on the sollution they use...its tap water.... and then explain what beniffits an anerobic microbe propogated in fresh water will have in a system thats designed for areobic salt water microbes (other than deeper levels of dsb etc)...and what happens to the residual sugars not yet broken down in the sollution.


    lots of questions, that they have never been able to answer and yes both Lindros (agents for Emrosa) or Emrosa have been asked.
     
  18. Tony

    Tony Thread Starter

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    So you reckon the stuff is no good?
     
  19. crispin

    crispin

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    sorry tony i lost this thread and only came back to this now.

    i recon this stuff is absolute crap, but thats my personal opinion. the scientific peer review which the organic industry did and which has been done around the world says so too
     
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