Please... some advice....

Discussion in 'Biological/Natural Filtration and Deep Sand Beds' started by Mrabkin, 4 May 2010.

  1. Mrabkin

    Mrabkin

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    Have just set up my +-200l tank, and built this sump to fit into the cabinet below... which is limited in space!
    [​IMG]

    It is 650 long, 350 wide and only 170 deep.. As as said... limited cabinet space.

    Would i be wasting time with a DSB?
    I know the depth is ok, but the total surface area is concerning me. Perhaps removing my dividers is the only way- to make space for more sand..

    Suggestions welcome...:p

    Mike
     
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  3. Tremayn

    Tremayn

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    hey, you can remove the dividers, make the 1st compartment for the skimmer, 2nd and biggest for the DSB and 3rd for the return
     
  4. neil.h

    neil.h

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    How much height have you got to work with? If your sump is that shallow, I gather you going skimmerless?

    In my noob status, I understood that the sand needs to be ~15cm deep with water flowing over it. Can't seem to find a hard and fast rule on that...
     
  5. Mrabkin

    Mrabkin Thread Starter

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    i've got 13cm for sand and a 3cm layer of water flow on top...

    As for skimmer... will do an ext one when i can get one... def at a later stage!! Expensive hobby!

    my whole concern is weather or not the total size of my sump is big enoght for a DSB...
     
  6. FransSny

    FransSny

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    Hi Mike,

    Nothing wrong with 13 cm. Move 1 st pane (LH) to 15 - 20 cm from the side. That would leave enough space for your inlet & skimmer outlet as well as the feeder pump for an ext skimmer.

    Remove middle pane.

    Do the same with 3 rd (RH) pan as with pane 1. This will leave enough space for return pump.

    This would leave you with enough space for a DSB, macro algea etc.

    BTW have you tested if the sump can handle the overflow in case of power outage without overflowing ?
     
  7. Sentari

    Sentari

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    Just remember you need a skimmer. Its very essential! No point doing anything if you dont have one.
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Depending on your glass thickness, you might need to brace the center. Can even use the middle baffle you are taking out and install it flat as a "euro" brace.

    The water depth above the DSB is not really that important, 2-3cm is OK. Deeper space above DSB allows for macro algae like Cheato etc to be grown there. But if you do not have the space, then so be it.

    Make last chamber just big enough for return pump. If in future you get an external skimmer, make the first chamber a small little box for the downpipe to enter. Maximize your sand area.

    Last thing. Just ensure that your water level in sump is enough to handle extra overflow when Eskom decides you need a break. Multiply display tank width and length. Divide the answer by sump length then by sump width. The answer will give you the water height increase in the sump when 1cm of the display tank drop when the power goes out. If this calculation is out, then keep the towels close by.
     
  9. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    if you cant afford a extranal skimmer or fit a internal, you could always consider a hang on back skimmer, something like a BH-1000 rated for 400l or a BH-2000 rated for 600l
     
  10. Mrabkin

    Mrabkin Thread Starter

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    Thx, got it!!

    Re the Eskom mission... i've used an overflow system that needs the pump to be on in order to actually overflow. also will have no syphonable plumbing... have done this eskom thing once too many.. Wet carpets smell BAD!!
     
  11. PeterL

    PeterL

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    I disagree 100%, skimmers weren't around all the time and people created reef tanks without them back in the day and there are still people with good reef systems today who dislike skimmers and don't use them. I think the correct research will show this.

    I personally use a skimmer and would certainly highlight it is your items of things you should buy, but I have seen systems running without skimmers and they work perfectly fine...This is a very debatable topic in which you have to decide if you are going to get on e some day or you are going to run with a skimmerless filtration system, which ever way you go, you have to do your research properly.

    I have learned that doing things with only half the info just makes reef keeping very frustrating and at times annoying, only because one doesn't understand properly because of a lack of detailed education on specific items...
     
  12. Sentari

    Sentari

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    How can you disagree... Are you still living in the past?

    Newer ways of filtration have helped us to make sure our reefs are in prime condition. Skimmer is one of those things you will never get rid of. Yes there are people running skimmerless reefs but this is replaced with ATS or some sort of filtrations that removes the DOC. Without something to remove the DOC your tank will always have high nitrates and ammonia.

    I'm giving advise to a new person who still has a long way to go and alot to learn. Not to someone who has been doing reefing for years and knows whats good and whats not.

    There's the safe way and there's the researched and understood way. Honesly i would rather give advise to people to go the safer way. In no way was i justifying that its the ONLY way i was saying its the safest.

    I myself run a ATS and i still have a skimmer. This discussion happened awhile back with SantaMonica and got shot down.
     
  13. Singularity

    Singularity Hmmm amper!

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    And just one more point, back in the day ordinary people wasnt very successful in keeping any kind of coral alive long term, if you look at some old pics you would mostly see white coral skeletons as decoration.
     
  14. FransSny

    FransSny

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    Zombie I am going to agree with Sentari here. I take it your comment was maybe because of unnecessary equipment purchases that you made based on advice received from others. If so I feel your frustration

    BUT the comment you made is quite irresponsible, and totally off ,the mark. Especially beginners ! I feel it takes a LOT of experience (and possibly trail and error) to get a 100 % naturally system fully functional.

    Mike ...go for the skimmer, you have enough time as you wont really need it in the first few weeks of cycling but get the best one you can afford. This is one piece of equipment you should not skimp on
     
  15. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    The same goes for bio-balls, nothing wrong with them. Very good filtration capability - up to a point. For a fish only system, bio-balls is the in thing. But we all know by now that filtration must be better to keep more challenging stuff. So that is why we go scrubbers, cheato, various reactors , DSB and Skimmers. Depends on what you want. But the number one required tool in the sump area is the skimmer.

    Also on a brand new DSB, it can take anything from 3 to 6 months to do its thing 100%. So what filtration will be used in that time?

    Get the best skimmer your money can buy. You will not be sorry.
     
  16. PeterL

    PeterL

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    The input provided by many in the debate as I mentioned is so - it is a debatable subject. I never disagreed with using a skimmer, I disagree with informing someone that there is no point doing anything in a reef aquarium if he doesn't have a skimmer.

    If you go on to read the rest of my post is does say that "...I use a skimmer...", I personally won't run a reef tank without one. However, in having said that, it is possible and acomplishable to sustain life in a reef aquarioum without one.

    I also never once said that it was any cheaper or simpler to do it in this fassion witout one, to my knowledge it really is an "advaced" user who would even "try" that form of filtration for nothing else maybe but the sakes of trying to acomlish it. Understanding and good knowledge is required.

    I also went on to provide advice in that no matter what piece of equipment is used or firtration device and or method is used, one needs to do their "homework" properly and understand why we use things - not just put one in because someone says so.

    I am running a DSB with skimmer because I have a better understanding of it over a refugium with LR and nitrate fiters and the rest of the gear which goes to keeping that system stable over a long period of time.

    I am not against you one bit, I say all for a skimmer for sure, but just the part of saying a person mustn't bother doing anything if you don't have a skimmer when if a person choses that form of filtration (which is an option - you can take a horse to water as was said directly to me once), we can only offer guidance by means of the members in MASA or the like who have the proper experience in the alternate forms of filtration.

    I don't suggest a beginner to proceed without a skimmer - that together with the balance of the equipment required will allow sustainable life, also, at the same time and trying not to sound contradictory to previous statemets which I may do - if one is batteling to buy a skimmer (which I am sure almost every single one of us did in the begining), you may very well struggle financially to afford the balance of what is entailed in running a stable reef aquarium.

    Bottom line and the advice I would give, not like I am any kind of pro in any stretch of the imagination, but, whilst you are saving your money to buy the skimmer which is suitale for your system, do all the research you can on the specific filter system you choose to use, there are variations and differences. Research within MASA and it's memebers will provide 99.9% of the information you require to be successful in marine aquariums, proper knowledge is key to everything, don't just blatantly take someones word for it, find out for yourself exactly why certain routes are advised against other to know what makes things different or easier to suit you given application and marine aquarium.
     
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