Permits

Discussion in 'Breeding fish' started by Nemos Janitor, 5 Jul 2011.

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  1. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    This forum has a number of Aquariusts that have set up fragging and breeding tanks on a number of varying scales. None have permits. The reason is two fold i presume. The first is ignorance of the requirement and the other the level of difficulty in obtaining a permit.

    I have provided quite a bit of information on @dee 's thread of splitting an anemone that aquariusts could use to obtain a permit. However i do not foresee a rush to do so. If we look at @LuckyFish case he attempted to apply for a permit and then had his stock seized (sort of) and is now in a court battle to save his passion and possible future. This is a definite deterrent for others wanting to apply for permits to be within the laws of SA.

    If each breeder and or propagator individually applies for a permit i do not see much success as he/she will be seen as one hobbyist trying to beet the system. If an organisation on the other hand applies or fights for the right to breed and propagate is another story.

    Perhaps if we request MASA, @Alan and @viper357, to form a body or committee to represent the hobbyist in decision made by MCM. I know that the answer is going to be, "Who is going to have the time to do it" . If we are serious about our hobby, and many are, surely we can have a half dozen or so guys stick up their hands.

    Representation to MCM or DAFF is to a point done by business in the form of SAPTA. However this representation is purely business orientated and in my opinion very biased. We do not have a commercial marine ornamental breeding facility supplying the LFS. We only have importers and it is the importers that SAPTA represent most.

    I really would like the input from some of the guys that have spent a lot of time, money and effort into their aquaculture setups. Let us try and make a difference as a MASA group.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jul 2011
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  3. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    I really think you're blowing things way out of proportion here, or scaremongering everyone to get them to stop fragging? For years and years we have been fragging, what has changed all of a sudden that we now need permits and need to form committee's? Why haven't MCM or DAFF or whoever they are contacted us and informed us (MASA) that we are encouraging illegal activity?

    Are there any other countries in the world that require hobbyists to have fragging permits?

    I had a brief look through the DAFF Standard Marine Aquaculture permit conditions, it talks about vessels (boats), radio call signs, biosecurity protocols, submitting of monthly and quarterly reports, etc. etc. etc. This is for big operations like the Eskom funded one, not for hobbyists.
     
  4. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    I agree with Viper. Untill MCM can get their act together, I cannot see any harm in us fragging.

    I studied Nature Conservation so when it eventually comes to that, I will help where I can but I cannot foresee this act being policed anytime in the near future.

    Keep fragging guys... :thumbup:
     
  5. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I think a group like this working with the DAFF, MCM and / or SAPTA would only benifit us as Reefers in the long run. It is evident things are a changing, and to ignore this would be detrimental to all of us.

    How would we go about doing something like this, and what would unundertaking like this entail? not only from the Comittee Memeber, but from MASA Members as a whole?
     
  6. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I have seen stranger laws and regulations passed in SA than any other country.
    We live in a uniquely divers contry.
    I dont think Nemo is asking us to go into a Flat panic, mearly to form a group, so that everyone can be informed, and everyone can have a voice to the powers that be.

    Is it not better to be prepared than to stink our heads to the ground and hope all is well?

     
  7. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    It is their job to approach us... If the government departments cannot do their job right because of whatever reason, it is NOT our problem. How are we expected to get permits if what happened to Lucky Fish happens to us? They need to get organized first otherwise we are just wasting our time and money.

    I worked for SANP and they have their act together because the same people that have always been running it are still doing so, be it behind the scenes. Why can't MCM be as efficient?

    When they approach us with an acceptable proposal, only then can negotiations start in earnest.
     
  8. JsPLAYn

    JsPLAYn

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    @Nemos Janitor .. Hey,correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it maybe worrying you that in the long run, maybe sooner, fragging will be so rife an cheap that it will take away business fron the importers,or slow it down, or even maybe cut you lfs stores profit margins,coz we knw most lfs overcharge and make over 100% profit an if guys frag daily an the fragging colonies grow an then guys will sell more privately and ur customers will obviously choose cheaper avenue an lfs will loose out...... I think that's more the case here.... So keep fragging guys,we need to save our natural reefs by tank propagation instead of harvesting and destroying our reefs......
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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  9. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Goverment does ask, if the public does not responed they do not give a crap. Look at the Toll Gates around JHB, it was gazzetted and asked that the public comment on the proposal. 100 people commented hence the goverment went ahead and put the tolls in place. Only now do we start complaining about them. Its to little to late.

    Do we want Something Similar to happen to our hobby?
     
  10. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Really where is your proof? This is off topic anyway. In an extereme case if goverment places all these restrictions on Breeding, Imports and fragging. the hobby will just become more expensive.
    All Nemo is asking is that we as MASA band together and find out what is going on rather than let the LFS voice our opinions.
     
  11. Meneer

    Meneer

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    Geez - next thing you guys are gonna say it's illegal to download torrents!!! :whistling:
     
  12. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    ummm technically it has been banned in SA almost all local torrent sites have been Smited :whistling:
     
  13. Meneer

    Meneer

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    I use the Torrents to drive my Skimmer..... :p
     
  14. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Good Idea.

    I hate all these "do good" laws being implemented. And especially the fines/fees that is imposed on the citizens.

    Take smoking laws for example. I'm not a smoker, but I think some rules are stupid. And look where it started, every year something extra, something more added, First restaurants needed an smoking area. All accepted and followed. Where are we now? No smoking area at all. Not even allowed to smoke within 10m from any building entrance. Drive through Jo-burg. And see all the smokers standing outside the building, having their bit of poison. Having 2, instead of one. Taking longer time-out to smoke. Giving me a wrong impression on the company they work for, All lazy people standing outside, not doing their work? How is these smoking rules impacting on the productive hours and on the economy eventually?

    Same for alcohol advertisements. Castle Lager sponsoring the cricket team.
    Dog tails that are not allowed to be docked anymore.
    Rica.
    Fica.
    Toll roads and their fees, especially Gauteng to force people to use the Gautrain.
    Gun laws - for the rightful legal owner.
    The new information act.

    Are any of these removing hardened criminals from our society? Making South Africa a safe place to be. Making our country a viable option for international companies to invest in.

    Or are these rules making it difficult for law-abiding citizens, making them criminals.

    When we open our eyes one day, when we realize that some new law made me us criminals, then its too late....
     
    Last edited: 6 Jul 2011
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  15. rakabos

    rakabos

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    You wont see me going through the hassle of getting a permit for making frags here and there, thats just plain stupid
     
  16. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    Well I haven't seen it Gazetted yet so that is my whole point...
     
  17. butcherman

    butcherman Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Guys this is not just about selling frags with permits, Its about what Finding out what the gorerment has planned for pur hobby and raising our voice for or against it. The LFS has a voise through SAPTA. why cant we have our own voice?

    Everyone here is against the permit thing, so lets do something about it together?
     
  18. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor Thread Starter

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    Perhaps the message is being misunderstood. MCM will march ahead with their plans and make changes without consulting MASA or anyone for that matter. They will continue to do their thing because we are not working with them. Their needs to be a voice that can go along and say we represent x% of the hobby and x,y, is not correct because of whatever. Remember once they change something it will cost a lot of money to reverse the policy. I feel it better to be involved in the policy changes than sit back and hope they are to our benefit.

    Importing of LS will soon become a thing of the past. We (Triple five) have taken this fact into consideration in our QT landing facility. This will, in time, mean that local sourcing of corals and fish will become a priority for the LFS. Now without a cottage industry with permits to propagate and sell and supply to the LFS the hobby may find itself in decline. Without LS the industry will fail because without LS wholesalers of dry goods will go out of business.

    I am not trying to discourage propagation or breeding. I want the hobbyist to get involved in the process to ensure that continued LS becomes available to the industry.

    I will be spending the day talking to the authorities for our permit and will report back on the outcome.
     
  19. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    I think thats a very good idea.
     
  20. coswecanfly

    coswecanfly

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    You do of course all realize that this decision (like many other made by so-called nature conservation bodies) has NOTHING to do with conservation and is only another money making scheme. Like when they introduced fishing permits for recreational fishermen. It was said that the permit money was going to go to nature conservation and that jobs will be created to police these permits and up to date, not a single job has been created in that sense nor have we seen ANY of the money spent on permits. I studied nature conservation and I am VERY passionate about nature yet I have NEVER had a fishing permit and NEVER will. I have been asked for one several times and never has the fact that I do not have one had any reprecussions.
     
  21. robvdv

    robvdv

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    Personally I was really impressed to see ornamentals on the list: http://www.nda.agric.za/doaDev/fisheries/03_areasofwork/social.html#AA

    I don't see a problem with regulating/regularising the industry. It shows a willingness on the part of DAF to change and evolve. It's better than a blanket ban, or some other knee-jerk response. There are legitimate biosecurity concerns.
     
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