Organic uptake of carbon in scleractinians

Discussion in 'SPS Corals' started by irie ivan, 27 Jan 2013.

  1. irie ivan

    irie ivan MASA Contributor

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    Thanks to @Express Reef for aiding in getting a bit more braincell activity going with your question whether I have considered mixing liquid carbon dosing with orca cubes.
    my initial response was no.. as the cubes work so well....
    Mixing methodologies...
    Holobiont microbiota in the mucosal layer are not always the corals friends and readily avail Organic C can tip the balance in favour of the vibrio sp heading the top of the list of suspects as a cause of RTN....
    blah, blah, blah.
    But some time after replying, the thought struck me as to why he would ask the question.... We do not need any further nutrient reduction.... Solid C substrates are doing what 10 years ago a plethora of water changes struggled to achieve....

    So why would i want to consider it....
    Simple... Its not just about N and P in excess as algal nutrients, or in micro quantities as coral nutrients....
    We often forget that organic carbon is essential to the coral for meeting its energy budget....... Well met = effective respiration and calcification.

    The process as we know it, is one of very tight nutrient cycling between host and simbiont.......:
    As a biproduct of host (coral) respiration, CO2 and water are available to the simbiont (zooxanthellae living witin the tissue). The zooxanthellae use these biproducts during photosynthesis... In turn producing O2, some lipids and sugars for the host...As mentioned, a tight little nutrient cycle.

    Wait a second... Sugars for the host...

    Sugar.. Sugar = Organic C!!!
    But we knew that...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
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  3. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    I hope i'm gonna get somewhere with this..
     
  4. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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  5. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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    @irie ivan, :) sorry for letting your brain go to overdrive mode...:p So start dosing sugar and keep us update about the results :whistling:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  6. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Once sugar is produced, it is made available to the coral by one of three ways:
    Direct ingestion / digestion of the zooxanthellae, expulsion of the zooxanthellae or direct translocation of the sugar from zoox to host, with the last one of the three being the most likely.. See Assimilation of photosythetic products by zooxanrhellae of a reef coral; Muscatine & Cernichiari .
     
    Last edited: 27 Jan 2013
  7. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Nope, its not that simple.. Sugar yes... But how and more importantly, which one.....
    Apology accepted...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  8. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    And then of course there is tge delivery method...
     
  9. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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    ...elaborate:whistling:
     
  10. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    And theres more than just the sugar... It. Was believed that the main carbon Photosynthat was glycerol, translocated to the host for use in formation of lipids...
    New studies have emerged which postulate that fatty acids are in fact manufactured by the zooxanthellae and translocated to the host...
     
  11. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    How do we get the correct sugar and lipids to the host without it being ripped out by other biomass....
     
  12. MistaOrange

    MistaOrange

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    Tagging
     
  13. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  14. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    Tonnes... But the day simply been loong...

    Tbc, lol.
     
  15. Bob the (reef)builder

    Bob the (reef)builder

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    Something that may help you in your search can be found in the seachem range of products.

    Not trying to sell the product but maybe it will help your brain.:biggrin:

    Their Reef Calcium is not just Calcium. It's (according to the label) a bioavailable polygluconate complexed calcium.

    This apparently, other than making the Ca more bioavailable, provides a rich source of metabolic energy to help maintain peak coral growth.

    The Ca in this case is part of a molecule with the polygluconate. But possibly the polygluconate could be presented on its own.

    I'm no Chemist but maybe this can help.

    Cheers

    Rob.
     
  16. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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  17. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    It's a complex subject, I posted a link to a paper did you read it?
     
  18. irie ivan

    irie ivan Thread Starter MASA Contributor

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    I'll get there... Again, its late, hell of a day...
    But heres my thinking...
    Providing a biologicslly available source of carbon, fatty acids and N and P as well as the rest of the aminos the coral needs, can reduce a few more zooxanthellae?
    I know it sounds a bit crazy, especially from someone who believes nature knows best.... But ad shimek said: the only resemblance between our water and that on the reef is that they both are.... WET!

    The n and p is being taken care of, its a matter of the c as coral food.
    When one looks at things like zeostart and zeofood, it reads food for bac and corals. Yet they are carbon sources.....
    Likewise the post from bob above....
    The point of this blah blah blah, is trying to get a better understanding of the C processes between host and zoox....
    Thereafter to figure out the balance between zoox feeding C and our introduction of C...
    Not sure if this is where you were going by adking that Q via pm
     
  19. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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    So from your point off view is it good to dose an additional Carbon source...?
     
  20. mandarinman

    mandarinman

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    This obviously doesnt apply to bio cubes
     
  21. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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    Think its time to revive this thread. @irie ivan
    My new experimental mix on Carbon dosing:
    200ml Clear unflavored vodka + 50ml White Vinegar + 2tbs White sugar + 1000mlg Vitamin C dosing 1ml every 8hours via Doser.
     
    Last edited: 19 May 2016
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