Natural parasite ways for eradication.

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by pkc, 3 Dec 2012.

  1. pkc

    pkc

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    There is no actual science behind this way, but some of the known science relating to protists behaviour is amongst this, it’s more so just actually results visually as to the actions upon fish and their health!

    A very mature bio system will carry out a little of this with its protist communities, but to pass the tanks waters through a well designed clean wet section with near no oxidation achieved yet, for me works close enough to 100 percent affective with parasite control.

    I have typed this else where in Auz and some of the more interesting hobbyists prevents even thinking it is possible, that being the use of other protists with the eradication of the protists white spot and velvet.

    Twice over the last 25 years with in the aandtsociety there has been a close look at firstly an under gravel bio filters granules for a marine aquarium and later on a look at live rock with the use of laboratory gear.

    I have read totally conflicting opinions on what I do and many have quite strongly shot down my theory, so it is not regarded as possible, yet it works beautifully, for me!

    Both times our club looked at this, I wasn’t there for these experiments as they looked closely at the oxidisers of the nitrite cycle on and near the surface of calcium media.

    I know the people that looked at firstly a matured marine systems gravel from an under gravel bio filter in the eighties and the live rock a few years back and I believe their findings.
    They found the oxidising bacteria forms, but no where near enough to even slightly oxidise the tanks nitrite cycle to control the over all process.

    They did find very large communities of life forms above bacteria; later on I was told these were made up of predominately protazoan-protazoa.
    These days they are called protists or of the protista, which includes the ichthyophthirius multifilis which we call ich or white spot and amyloodinium ocellatum, which we call oodinium or velvet, both a pain in the body for our fish.

    Any scientific terms for me to use back then was not going to happen, I found the ones who knew and used the words and terms were of no use and I would not develop the use of those terms that I found pretentious from people that were of no help to me!

    So that’s why I don’t come across that well with wording as such, with the wording, I am years behind!!

    The reasons I believe these people found exactly what they said, are because I have after not long into the hobby, always started marine systems in certain ways after a little while of experimentation that showed, unbeknown to me until in the future, the ways I always use, proved they were right, well to me any way.
    Even when building complete and matured tank and system combos for two shops I had dealings with, this was so hobbyists could just buy it totally ready to go, this was back a while.

    I would use the ways that most likely many others use and not the old original bacteria in a bottle or live rock to start a system that was available after some years back.
    I have used the live rock and my home made venturi skimmer, after wood stone skimmers of course in the eighties for a while, I found this way far to weak for abundant fish in one closed system creating a large load on the bio medias capacity.

    Plus once the skimmer supported system is reliant on a skimmer, it can’t be let fail or left off.

    The way I would start a system was to boil and use bleach on everything; no life of any kind was to be a part of my cycling, just fresh seawater was the basis of the bio start.

    Treated dead tissue of all types were added and contained in stocking bags to stimulate many variations of ammonia that a marine system needs to get a good diverse cycle/mature.

    What was in the water, being bacteria and I assume protists at the start, these mutated to account for all of the cycling/maturing processes.

    Once this was in full swing the unstable initial bacteria part of cycling was complete and maturity was on its way.
    At this stage is where I believe protists are multiplying and grazing out the bacteria, as do the bacteriophages as well.
    All are applying their very important affects upon the tanks stability.

    The phages can’t harm any micro life encapsulated in a shell, so they more so account for additional assistance by adding some organic matter feeding the protist community with organic matter and producing enormous amounts of inorganic phosphorus we test as phosphates.

    Now the bio systems maturity is complete, the forms of protists that carry bacteria as a symbiotic life style and some forms that can oxidise the nitrite cycle with out the symbiotic bacteria are now running the majority of the nitrite cycle from nitrite to nitrate.
    I believe these are the only oxidising life forms that can retain a stable community in a salt-oxygen rich environment!


    The word protist is of a high priority now, you see fish from a constantly monitored copper sulphate environment were added to this system in many ways at different times to see what mutates from something else to live in this, there should no be any traces of white spot or oodinium due to the copper sulphate making it initially a protist free environment!

    The parasites appeared, even when salt water was not from the ocean, I used RO water filters and homemade saltwater after blasting the tank with copper sulphate and an acid I use to keep it in solution, then lowering the levels down with the sterile home made saltwater and making sure I sterilised my skin to not carry water or micro life on me from another tank, they still came back, how is this possible??

    I assume some protist are capable of remaining dormant for a long time and or this is a natural progression of mutating life from the basics to higher forms when nothing is there to stop them from advancing with in a closed systems evolutionary capacity.

    I feel protists prevent them selves from advancing any further by natural culling with in their own communities.
    I didn’t know any names or any scientific terms back then or any actual science to back this up, just what I could see and I put a meanings to what was happening, on my basic level of understanding.

    So from these times I came to the conclusion what ever was in the water, were self controlling communities?

    The ways in which I used these protists to cull the protists white spot and velvet was to make and establish similar to what we always called a wet section in the eighties.

    I found what works best is calcium particles between 3 to 8 mill in diameter and matured it as the main oxidation area as the water first leave the aquarium after excellent pre filtering.

    The types I make are vertical, like a reactor and as the tanks planktonic white spot and velvet pass to this area where the communities of protists living there feeding on bacteria and oxidising the nitrite cycle devour these weaker forms of protists and do not allow any to get past from what I have seen as results on the fishes bodies.

    I have induced stress and added infected fish and parasites are gone in a short time and do not return no matter what I do to try and get them to reactivate.

    Plus these parasites exist,dormant for a very long time at best in non active substrates waiting for stress signals to atack the fish,i dont use actual substrates!

    Salinity is normal, all levels are normal, and so these are not contributing to the process.

    For this and on going bio filtering stability, I had to find ways to make sure there can not be any potentially clogging matter coming going from my tank that would render this action weak or useless so the close gaps between particles needed to be protected for fully functional bio areas.
    Also any porus areas for anaerobic functions needed to be free of blocking potential to its porus nature, which is anything like a deep sand bed, shell grit bed (substrate) or porus coral.

    To get that part right, it took me nearly twenty-two years to get far better then filter socks or any other way of pre filtering out nearly everything!

    This enabled an external bio filter with a sand bed or any porus type of area or material used in any way, to remain free of potential blockages that ruin the nitrate reduction these areas are mainly for.

    With pre filtering better then filter socks, this way of on going parasite reduction was possible in such a simple way and always remains fully functional.

    The level of protists that carry out nitrite to nitrate, I assumed were quite a strong and carnivorous to their own kind once bacteria was not available to graze on, the protist community to do all this I assume, is very diverse.

    This is only from results there is no science behind this and I would not expect any one to copy my findings, it’s just another option with in the hobby to save your fish from parasites!
     
    Last edited: 3 Dec 2012
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  3. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    Ok, that's a lot of info to digest, and I need pictures to make me understand sometimes. What you're saying is, a biological prefilter that must be kept clean from any material that will block it so as to allow the protists to grow and thereby remove/kill any single celled parasites (also protists?) like white spot and velvet, have I covered that, or am I crazy? :blush:
     
  4. Bob the (reef)builder

    Bob the (reef)builder

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    Hi pkc,

    Very interested in your findings. I am struggeling a little to understand your concept. Could you draw a simple schematic drawing to explain your system. Also sizes to cater for say a 1000l system.

    Thanks
    Rob.
     
    Last edited: 3 Dec 2012
  5. toppdogg

    toppdogg

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  6. williet

    williet Look at the shiny LEDs!!!

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    Interested.....
     
  7. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Copper only targets the free swimming stage of whitespot. The Theronts stage. That is when they hatch from the cyst and are looking for a host. Timespan of this stage is anything from time it hatch up to maximum 48 hours later. The sooner they find a host, the better survival rate. And they hatch at night, close by to where they fell off (also at night). Meaning, they hatch close to where the fish are sleeping. Making it so much easier to find a host and to re-infect the same fish.

    So you are looking at a short time of an hour, maybe two, to kill the theronts with the correct level of copper. During a whitespot cycle that last between 7 up to 28 days, depending on temperature. So a one hour for copper to be effective, out of anything between 168 to 672 hours. The window of opportunity is just so small, and then the copper levels must be at that time perfect. If the theronts find a host very quickly, before the copper can damage them, then they are under the protective slime layer on the fish. Too late then.

    My opinion, although copper is effective to kill the theronts, it just do not have the time to do it.
     
    Last edited: 3 Dec 2012
  8. pkc

    pkc Thread Starter

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    I have used copper chloride, green and blue malachite and chloroquine later as well, still the sane results, even after weeks and weeks of treatment.

    White spot has on average a 48 hour turn over and velvet around 10 days, these were known a very long time ago and remembered amongst all this.

    The pre filter,as in a settling type of pre filter is needed to keep the waters clean as they reach the area of protist reduction, not to house them.

    I use a wall barrier for the first pre filter for a soft catch of rubbish and then a settling pre filter after the algae.

    This is one of my settling pre filters from the top.

    [​IMG]

    You don’t have to believe that the protists can be used for culling each other.

    For me it’s all about sharing, its not about saying you have to do it this way, i really don’t care!

    I used to love collecting and experimenting with what I collected and try all kinds of possibilities and ideas, but I have just about run out of ideas on what to experiment with and I could only ever see the results on a purely personal level,as always.

    Any way, if any one gives it a try, why not, if you don’t, it doesn’t matter as I have put it on here once!

    I am like many others, I believe nothing unless I see it or do it!
     
  9. Express Reef

    Express Reef

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    Can you please give more details? Would like to see more pictures how your pre filters works, and what you use as pre filters, looks like its working great:thumbup:
     
  10. pkc

    pkc Thread Starter

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    Here is a couple of examples I did up so our club members could understand how to make a barrier pre filter ( this one i built for a description only,it went in the bin after that),it is with a dual tube settling pre filter.

    This was just so they get the drift of how to make one, this way of pre filtering can be made in many other shapes and ways, this is just the principal explained,that’s all.

    http://southeastqueenslandm.aforumfree.com/t1310-diy-pre-filter-for-reef-aquarium-building-instructions
     
  11. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Although I understand the concept. Its not for me.

    That is a lot of extra husbandry to your weekly schedule. And it surely will block up quickly, needing at least twice weekly cleaning. Guaranteed point or cause of a flooding. And a lot of extra to explain to tanksitters. This is just another oversized form of filter socks. And that is already a maintenance problem.

    Lastly, this will prevent any food from reaching your DSB area. maybe a good thing for some as they do not want the excess food to settle on the sand. But I want to feed the worms, copepods, cerianthus and snails that I do have in and on my DSB. They do need something to eat.

    Maybe it is a good thing, maybe can be improved with a emergency overflow. But not for me.
     
  12. pkc

    pkc Thread Starter

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    My work load on my systems and tanks is very slight,I use squeeze bottles for fish and invert foods I make and freeze in the bottles,40 at a time and even beside the tank for a few days it doesn’t go off due to the mix I make, so its just a squeeze in every now and then when one of us passes the tanks and that feeds all corals, tube worms fish, everything.

    It has an emergency over flow built in for both wall and settling, every possible fail-safe is built in, it is impossible for some thing to go wrong unless I am to lazy or couldn’t be bothered with something!

    There is a bit of maintenance for sure, the wall is to be cleaned each day, dead tissue that it catches encourages cyano before any thing else, it takes 2 to 3 mins with that one and I change it once each couple of weeks.

    The settling part, I clean any where from once each 7 to 10 days, I have left it for two weeks at times, the wall can be left for 4 to 6 days with new filter wadding used for that time, that’s what I do when I go away for a while.

    With the wall and settling I have 8 spares waiting that my wife puts through the wash when I change them ready for next time, its very easy for any one to handle what I build.

    Plus I make my own auto top up of RO as well so it looks after it self as well.

    I add all substances at an amount to carry the corals for a week at a time, normally in the RO water supply drum that is auto top up.

    I have to let it empty at times to get the balance set up again, that takes just moments to do.

    I still use some of my home made wadding socks or wall socks that I made in July 2011,they last a long time and cost around 5 cents each to make in materials!

    I have had everything go wrong with endless experimentation in the past and you learn that fail safes are more important then anything with DIY.

    Food getting to deep sand beds is not an issue, calcium carbonate; cilica, presiptitation, worms tunnel coatings and so on are what blocks up deep sand beds.

    The food or dead tissue is aerobically dissolved on top and in the first 15 mill of the surface and anaerobic oxidation below that, so the calcium of fish and silica of plankton inside and on that dead tissue is a part of the problem as it falls through the gaps as the dead tissue is broken down.

    Then you get inorganic phosphorus-phosphate as well coming out of suspension from the bond of orthophosphate and phosphate and is in all tissue and it falls in there from that dead tissue as well and adds up to encouraging not so good bacteria down there over time.
     
    Last edited: 4 Dec 2012
  13. durleo

    durleo

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    I like this idea and will incorporate into my next sump design. So if we are using this type of system to combat whitespot , which area will house the protozoans that will cannabilise the whitespot and velvet?

    can you post some pics of your sump setup and fish tank?
     
  14. RocketRooster

    RocketRooster

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    Genetic mutation doesn't happen that fast. You simply missed some of the critters despite your CuSO4 attempts.

    Microorganisms are very well protected, even beneath a layer of mulm. Ask any koi keeper who's tried to rid his system of KHV ferinstance. You cull the lifestock, dump tonnes of vircon S and chlorine in the water, circulate for a long time, drain and let it stand bone dry for weeks. And then you start over from the beginning...
     
  15. pkc

    pkc Thread Starter

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    I can only go on what i see and achieve I believe nothing unless I see it or do it.

    The ways in which i have been establishing marine aquariums either the pre-established bio systems in the late 80s to early 90s for shop s or my own for over 30 years.

    I do not get parasites, I believe with this sort of bio filter with settling filters to protect it, nitrate and parasites are impossible to have!


    Bottom tank run by the NWMS

    [​IMG]

    Top tank run by the NWMS

    [​IMG]

    Anaerobic parts of the NWMS
    Its in three parts with each flowing to the next.
    The first is more or less the same as an under gravel and eradicates the parrasites, the second is a deep sand bed, the third is of small chunks of dead coraline.

    [​IMG]

    Settling filters.
    With out these no anaerobic bio filtering media can function at a high level over the long term.
    These keep one foot of bio area doing the same as a three foot section unprotected over time.
    All three affectivly complete the separation the two oxygen atoms leaving the remaining one nitrogen atom.

    [​IMG]

    My old bio filter that is based on the same as a verticle under gravel in two halves and tests show no nitrite cycle at all in any test, but this system because I can not use algae with these fish, encourages levels of phosphorus well off the charts!
    Its of no harm to these life forms as the organs that extract the salt form the waters they drink also extract the phosphorus beyond what their bodies require.

    [​IMG]

    Filter sock before it.

    [​IMG]

    Some of the 12 fish in the tubs run by 16 plus year old system

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 21 Dec 2012
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