Marine Ich ? What is the correct treatment?

Discussion in 'Quarantine Tanks, sick fish, QT corals' started by williet, 20 Jan 2011.

  1. williet

    williet Look at the shiny LEDs!!!

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    Hi all

    Remember I had a thread under urgent help needed for my blue tang that had ich ? Well now all my fish have it (2 Clowns and a Bi-color Blenny).

    This has prompted(Forced) me to understand the disease and what treatment options are available. As I am desperate!

    I have done a lot of research and I get lots of conflicting stories. I thought this would be a cool place to discuss this disease, “eliminate" the myths from the facts and help Newbies like myself to know what is the right treatment?

    I will list the treatments and what conflicts in each one.

    Copper

    It is good. Some say 100% survival rate but it is dangerous and you have to ensure the Cu levels stay right. Not reefsafe and must be done in a qt

    Formaline

    Also another treatment carcogenic you need to work with gloves and also can be dangerous as it will further damage damaged tissue.

    Cu + Formaline

    This was another mixture and apparently is a lot better.

    Transferring

    This is interesting – You have two hospital tanks and transfer the fish only between the tanks every day, clean the tank out and then do the same the next day for 10 days. (Where does all the non infected cured water come from ????)
    The shrowd of darkness
    Here the tell you to switch off all lights, cover your tank and raise the temperature to 29c(Here I have had reports that raising temperature only works with freshwater and this is baaaaddd for corals and will cause bleaching but the will recover ?). This has to be done for exactly two days. This will accelerate the lifecycle and the tomites will not be able to find the host ? And die? They also say to put some garlic in the food (Which I will get to shortly) It encourages feeding is a natural antibiotic and the smell causes the parasites not to find its host ????
    Garlic
    Some say jay some say nay. Some speak of the benefits abovementioned, but others say whilst there no scientific proof, it does stimulate appetite in fish but also damages their livers?
    Reef safe products
    Boy, the List here is endless I will discuss one
    The say Herbatana is very good and natural and should be used in conjuction with Artemis. It is 100% reef safe and helps the fish recover and boost immunosystems.
    Then there is heal all which I have been told is a waste of time?
    Then there is the window period ? How long before you can add more livestock to your tank ?
    So without writing a 20000 words thesis, here is a condensed version of my research last night !

    Guys ? Input ?

    I need a :peroni:
     
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  3. rakabos

    rakabos

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    What worked for me was adding vitamin/immune boosting stuff to the food. Soaked mysis in it and fed to the fish. They got better in a few days. The disease is not killed off and the odd one spot shows up every time they are stressed but they healthy as oxes
     
  4. Anemone

    Anemone

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    I vote for hyposalinity.

    I've never heard of the transfer method. It sounds very stressful to fish and owner both. I've also never heard of the darkness method. Both sound like a myth to me.
     
  5. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    here is the cycle

    [​IMG]

    easier to understand.
    From what I know. @Yuri correct me if I'm wrong.

    The part of Tomonts, they are immune to copper. No effect on the encystment. But they cannot withstand getting dried out. Your 2 tank system, that fits in there, keep the one tank and all equipment completely dry for a day. Also, the egg capsules are sticky, so very difficult to siphon out.

    Tomites, that is the infection part, free swimming. Here copper works and kill them. Also UV and ozone. Must get a host in max 2 days or they die. As in fish, inverts not affected.

    Trophonts, that is the spots on the fish. copper can help. Cleaner shrimps apparently.Cleaner wrasse might, but apparently they are more into dead skin and other stuff. If white spot on the gills, then only cleaner shrimp can help. No quarantee that cleaner shrimps will take care of all the parasites on the fish. Mature Trophonts, maybe UV or ozone. Copper not very effective against Trophonts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  6. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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  7. inflames

    inflames

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    I can only comment on what worked for me, and Agree with Brenda. Hyposalinity worked for me and then if you understand the cycle and keeping your fish stress free, goes along way in keeping your tank "white spot" free.

    Good luck!
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    just something I realize.
    Trophonts/Fish phase 3 to 7 days.
    Tomonts/egg phase 3 to 28 days.

    and this depends on the water temp. If you raise your water temp to 29, then surely you speed up the cycle, but the eggs can hatch within 3 days. So cycle can restart in anything from 7 days to 35 days.

    So if you got 4 small separate tanks. You need to move the fish at end day two to clean tank. Repeat that end of every second day, until day 8. You need to move the fish every second day 4 times. Example 4 * 30L tanks. Only 4 heaters and 4 airlines with airstones are needed. Do every time a 30L water change from your display just before you move the fish. First day no overfeeding. Second day 30minutes before the move, feed a lot of food. On day 8, the fish can move to a larger QT tank for a month. Just to make sure. That is a lot of work. Wonder how much stress that will put on the fish? Being moved every second day?

    Looking at the cycle, and at warmer temp to speed up the cycle, the next wave of parasites can hatch 3-4 days after you put the fish in the QT.

    I lost two very nice fish due to white spot in my QT. On day 25. So siphoning the bottom clean does not work. Done it every 3rd day.
     
  9. Yuri

    Yuri

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    At the end of the day white spot can only stay 7 days max so only do the transfer for 7 days
    I think 5 weeks of copper or formalin or hypoSG is more stress on the fish than a 7 day transfer way then white spot is dead
     
  10. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Treating the white spots for 7 days treats the symptoms, not the cause.

    Hyposalinity is believed to actually reduce stress.


    I found these helpful:

    ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site - Reference - Marine "Ich"



    ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site - Reference - Hyposalinity Treatment
     
  11. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Question, Does copper treatment help in ALL the cycles?

    I heard (need the proof) that the Tomonts / Eggs are not affected. Is that true?

    The infectious stage, free swimming looking for a host definitely is controlled with copper.

    What about the Trophonts / parasitic stage? Does Copper do anything helpfull?
     
  12. Yuri

    Yuri

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    how long can you keep a fish in hypo (do you still think it is good for a fish)
    i know sum guys think 10 weeks

    when you brake the cycle with the transfer method you kill white spot in 7 days (go and look at the diagram and think about it )
     
  13. Anemone

    Anemone

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    RiaanP,

    From here: Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com


    Copper has several disadvantages in treating Ich. First, at too low a dosage, it is ineffective. Secondly, at too high a dosage, it could kill all your fish. Daily, or better yet twice daily, testing is required to maintain an appropriate and consistent level of copper. Even when within the appropriate ranges, some fish cannot tolerate copper. Some of the fish more sensitive to copper are lionfish, pufferfish, mandarins, blennies, and any other scaleless fish. Copper is also a known immunosuppressive, making fish more susceptible to secondary infections. Invertebrates are extremely sensitive to copper and cannot be housed in a tank undergoing this treatment. Lastly, copper cannot be used in the presence of any calcareous media. Live rock, sand, crushed coral, and dead coral skeletons will all adsorb copper, rendering it useless a treatment.

    Copper specifically targets the infectious, free-swimming theront stage of this disease, as being buried deep in the skin of the host protects the trophonts; the cyst walls of the tomonts are similarly impervious (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Knowing this and the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans, monitoring and dosing as needed in the evening right before the lights go out is going to be the most effective method. This should ensure optimal treatment concentrations at the most beneficial time.

    Copper is probably the most popular method of treating Cryptocaryon irritans, but is not my first choice. It is far too labor intensive for me to recommend to the general public, has a large risk of overdose, lowers the fish's resistance to other diseases, and can cause serious damage to the kidney, liver, and beneficial intestinal flora of the fish being treated. Damage to intestinal flora is what many hobbyists point to as a possible contributing cause for Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE), although there is currently no definitive cause of HLLE.
     
    Last edited: 20 Jan 2011
  14. Anemone

    Anemone

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    4 weeks after the syptoms are gone. This is usually no more than 6 weeks.




    You are not killing the reproductive stage (3 - 28 days) in that 7 day period.
     
  15. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    So the use of copper is only useful for a time period since eggs hatch and finding a host.

    And that can be anything, up to 48 hours. So 1 hour after hatching - sorry too late.

    Trying to catch that one hour in a cycle that can be 35 days. Sounds stupid. And a waste of time. Why even bother with copper then. Too low, and not effective within an hour, sorry, did not work, here comes another cycle.
     
  16. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    yes you are. You are moving the fish to another clean tank. Or bucket. Two days later to another bucket. At least 4 buckets are needed.

    And on two days, salinity and water nitrate levels should not impact that much.
     
  17. Anemone

    Anemone

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    That pretty much sums it up Riaan! Not to mention it is very dangerous.
     
  18. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    And then you can dry out the used buckets. Fill them with boiling water. Bleach them, Clean with asetone, rinse and let it dry out in the sun. Try to survive that bloody eggs.
     
  19. Yuri

    Yuri

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    you are thy get the sun for 24 hours ;) and kettle water :blush:
     
  20. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    good to know.

    And other forms of medicine. Or are they all targeting the free swimming - looking for host stage?

    BTW, I'm rethinking my QT setup. So far, either the bucket method, but it is a lot of work. Or Hypo. Or both.... First buckets at normal salinity, then 4 weeks hypo in proper QT tank.
     
  21. Yuri

    Yuri

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    you can see me and Riaan had lots of chats about this and we think the same on the white spot thing and even post the same times
     
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