Lose the Vortech Wavemakers

Discussion in 'Pumps and Waterflow' started by Mr Tim, 12 Mar 2013.

  1. Mr Tim

    Mr Tim

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    All

    I am building a new tank with a full width skinny overflow and two returns. I plan to put one sump pumps on each return and using a controller push the return flow alternately to create a wave and current if you like. I am doing this because I want to lose the MP40 and the wires.

    Two 12volt Tunze pumps and a USB Controller are in the running and I am also thinking of using a wavemaker nozzle to direct the flows.

    I have had some help on the design so I don't overflow or drain the tank in a power outage already.

    My questions are:

    1. Suggestions for other pumps and controllers.
    2. Who supplies the nozzles this side of the world.

    If it works fine this Vortech, the Waveline 5000 return pump and this tank/sump will be going on sale because I am building a new one so watch my space soon........

    Over to you, Thanks

    Tank.jpg
     
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  3. Normandp1

    Normandp1

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    you must let me know the price of the Vortech MP40 please? Or if you realy want to lose it,i'll take it? LOL:lol:
     
  4. Mr Tim

    Mr Tim Thread Starter

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    Norman

    Will do, I will also be selling a Bubble Magus Calcium Reactor, Saga Master Controller, PH Probe, Co2 Bottle, Regulator. Waveline 5000 electronic Pump , all of which have been used for less than 2 months so watch this space.
     
  5. Normandp1

    Normandp1

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    Thanks...
     
  6. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    The problem with your design is that you will only know if its working after the build is complete.

    I had a closed loop system on a 750 L tank. 2 * 13600L/h pumps pushing primary out of 4 outlets. There was 6 outlets but I did not use the bottom 2. Point is that I got an equivalent of 6800L/h per outlet before taking head lost into account. In reality, more likely 5000L/h per outlet. Testing the tank with just water and it looked great. Later on with rocks in place the flow was just not enough. Replaced the closed loop with 2 * MP40 and I got a lot better flow.

    The real problem was that the pumps used to be Reeflow Super Dart. Nice pumps, but at 115W constant cost it does not compare at all to 2 * MP40 in terms of wattage consumed. Full blast the MP40 use 28W each. Taking into account that these pumps run 24/7/365 , then the closed loop used over 14000KW in one year for both pumps. The MP40 at full speed, without nightmode will use 3400KW in the same year for 2 pumps. Taking nightmode into account, halfday at 14W and the usage drop to 2500KW for the year.
    My tariff is 1.2037 so for MP40 that is R3069 for the year or R255 per month. On the closed loop it will be almost R17000 for the year or R1414 per month. That is a difference of R1158 per month on running costs.

    Generally, all return pumps use 5 times the power than a powerhead. And over the year it does count up. The new DC pumps are better, but still uses a lot. The Waveline DC10000 uses 85W. I can get 10000L/h out of Seio pumps at a lot less wattage.
     
    Last edited: 12 Mar 2013
    dizzyg likes this.
  7. ShaunSwindon

    ShaunSwindon

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    Thanks Riaan that is really good info :thumbup:
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Pleasure

    Thing is, a closed loop can be setup to be totally hidden. look at the display at Dorry, There is a closed loop system under those rocks, totally out of the way.

    Can be set up to be anemone safe. A lot easier and better than powerheads.

    But due to costs, both running and initial price for good quality pumps. There the closed loop cannot match powerheads. Also take into account the cost of the PVC piping and especially ballvalves on both sides of the pump, add that to the price of the pumps. My closed loop PVC and valves cost me R1200 a couple of years ago.

    If I can do a little tank, 100L or less, and I want it to be an anemone tank, connected to my main display filtration. Then I will surely go closed loop.

    Not sure on the wattage rating on the options Mr Tim got in mind. But this is just something to think about.
     
  9. Mr Tim

    Mr Tim Thread Starter

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    Riaan

    Its all scary stuff, ''will it work'', I'll U-Tube the explosion and make millions...................

    No, on a more serious note all of your advice is sinking in and daily I am tweaking the design mindful of the inputs from MASA, that's what's so great about the forum. I've gone from ''Zero to Hero'' and become an aquarium expert in less than 2 months (definition of an expert is knowing 10% more than the wife).

    My game plan is simple '' hide the wires''.

    My fall back position is revert back to the Vortech which I wont sell until the new tank is up and working.

    As far as the pumps I'm running with two Tunze 1073.05 on a 7096 Controller, I can have a 12V back up system then. I've also put it out on the forum for any better pumps or ideas. I will only order the pumps later in the week.

    Meantime I'm enjoying the feedback, help and friendship, thank you MASA.
     
  10. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    :lol:

    but the problem is, she is learning all the way as well. You need to stay ahead.... And read more and more...
     
  11. dallasg

    dallasg Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Sounds interesting, but closed loops to me are a waste and maintenance nightmare, I was going to use them on my new build and tossed the idea. I went vortechs, no wires in tank and can't see them at the back
     
  12. Visser

    Visser MASA Contributor

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    @Mr Tim, i also tried the "tank without wavemakers" by creating a sump that could handle high flow & then adding 4x the required flow pumps pumping through 2 return lines in my nano...
    I ended up replacing the sump, removing the large return pump & replacing with dc-3000 & turned to an eco vortech for flow... & since then, all my corals have been MUCH happier!

    Before that, almost all my corals hated the flow!!! Now, they look like they are in heaven!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  13. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    having built a number of tanks varying in designs and flow principles (pumps used vs closed loop) i have found it far easier to simply add a set of tunzes instead of a closed loop where flow is concerned.. i would however still probably put a closed loop in place for flushing from below the rockwork but this would work periodically with a strong pump and on a timer to limit running cost, its an area most flow pumps just cannot get to and something more permenant is required.

    a nice device to have should you go closed loop is an oceans motion, it alternates the flow being fed to it from a closed loop pump and has 4 outlets which requires a little more plumbing..

    the main problem as riaan pointed out is your eventual rock structure, which will change from concept phase to actual eventual placement, it will also forever be changing as corals grown and flow patterns will never be what you thought they would be..

    my motto is the simplier the better, a nice feature you can buy from tunze is a tunze rock which conceals their pumps.. but i would recomend they be placed in such a way so that they can be acessed for maintenance...

    just my input..
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2013
  14. Mr Tim

    Mr Tim Thread Starter

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    Many thanks Visser ................ I am determined to try this thing but like I.ve said I am not selling the Vortech just in case this scenario does not come right.

    Keep well.
     
  15. trad

    trad Fish, thats the word!

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    Nothing could beat or come close to the flow of that MP40. Saying that, I'll buy it from you.
     
  16. dizzyg

    dizzyg Red Sea Max 250

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    If "hide the wires" is what you are aiming for have a look at the new Red Sea Max 500 or "s" series

    for me the price of these tanks is prohibitive but if you could take ideas from their design and replicate you would be heading in the direction of a wire free neat tank!

     
  17. Mewik

    Mewik

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    The mp40 pumps out 3200g per hour, which is over 12000 litres, it also pumps out a wide stream that alternates etc which is much better for corals. To get a closed loop to move 12 000 litres of water an hour you are going to need some seriously large return pumps and return piping, once you calculate the loss due to bends, height etc, even if you do get the same flow rates as an mp40 it will pretty much be a constant flow from one or 2 directions, if its 2 then you will most likely only be moving 6000l, half of the mp40. Like Riaan said it will be kind of pointless as you will end up paying a fortune for the pumps then a fortune in running costs, all of which still wont compare to the mp40 alone.

    IMO you would get the same result movement wise from sticking some 1 or 2 sun sun vibration pumps in your tank as you would with the closed loop....you would just save a few grand and not have to build a plumbing conundrum under your tank.

    I attempted this idea with my boyu tank so I have some experience with it, ran 2x 3000L returns, designed my sump to have a straight through high flow area from which water was slowly pumped into a filter area which then fed back into the high flow area before the return chamber....it was ultimately a waste of time and I ended up going with an mp10. Corals were and still are way way happier with the mp10.

    I dont know the whole idea seems like too much risk for very little gain imo, more pumps & more pipes mean more things to fail on you, plus more cash to be outlayed. Really take your mp40 and shove it in, you know that it will do the job you need doing and can only either work or break. Plus when it breaks nothing leaks like a closed loop can do.
     
  18. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    definatley, and if you dont plan it properly allowing for outlets to be able to be shut of independantly it could be an issue you need to live with, i made such a mistake and had to live with salt creep due to not being able to shut off the pump to do the repair..
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2013
  19. George

    George Sponsor

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    I think what Tim is trying to do here is not create a closed loop system, but send biological waves via a return pump, which has that facility. Just like all the power heads mentioned. His inlets will be on the top and not through the floor like a closed loop. The return pump he wants to use is an electronic pump which can do this theoretically. I do think that Mr Tim's idea warrants some thought for the future. IMO I do not think it will be able to compete with the power heads mentioned. However that is what makes us all different from each other, some would like to put ideas to the test and others not.
     
  20. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    The problem would be his siphon break. Too strong returns too high up in the tank would pull down bubbles via the vortex it will create.

    Moving the inlets too low, and you will end up with too much water going down when power goes out.
    Using non return valve is not fail safe.
     
  21. Mr Tim

    Mr Tim Thread Starter

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    Gents

    Slow down, I am on the case.

    The entry point of the returns may indeed be on the high side but I am looking at an adjustable penductor to angle the flow etc. I've ordered a selection for testing purposes, see the enclosed link. This is the first ones are on the way.

    Also don't forget I've oversized the sump for containment purposes if we do siphon some water back, this I've tested on Version 1 already.

    Call me bonkers but RiaanP gave me an idea to run this baby on Solar, Georges pumps can run on 12V, I've got a chummy who does panels, we must invite him for a beer hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,

    http://www.fish-street.com/flow_accelerator_swirl_eductor

    Regards

    Tim
     
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