LNS - Low Nutrient System

Discussion in 'Chemical Filtration / Low Nutrient Systems - LNS' started by viper357, 23 Oct 2009.

  1. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    Right, so I have decided to go down the road of the much sought after LNS or ULNS reef tank.

    I am already confused by the 3 main contenders though, Zeovit, Korallen Zucht, Prodibio and Ultralith (Fauna Marin). Do I follow just one method or should I try to combine different parts of all 3 methods, if they are in fact different?

    So to start off I have read that the following are the basics:

    Efficient Strong Skimming
    Sufficient lighting
    Sufficient water flow
    Weekly water changes
    No DSB
    No macro algae
    2-3 cm sand bed in tank with a grain size of 2mm-4mm
    Zeolite Reactor
    Fresh, clean live rock

    Once I've got all that then the hard part starts, trying to figure out all of the additives and which ones to use etc. :y13:

    Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated. ;)
     
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  3. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Ok Dean, this is what I have found to work for me.

    Zeolites - Tunze (in the past KZ Zeolites)
    Bacteria Strain - Microbacter7 (in the past Zeobac)
    Carbon source - Vodka

    Additives :
    Potassium - KZ, but now changing to Brightwell.
    Iodine - discontinued (in the past Potassium iodine flouride) but i will get something from the Brightwell range.

    I suggest not adding any food for your corals as you do have fish which you feed, and the poo is food for corals.
    If the KZ Zeovit range is easily available, i suggest you take that route. As you know, it has been used for years and is perfected. :)
    Hope this helps :)
     
  4. Tony

    Tony

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    Hi Dean. With the Tunze zeolites I would advise against it with a reactor as the stones are small and get stuck in the sides of the reactor when you try and pump it to release the mulm. I have personally had better luck with the BW zeolites and they're much cheaper than the Tunze, at least in SA that is. You are in the UK so you should have better access to Zeovit although the Brightwells stuff is just as good and a whole lot cheaper. Prodibio are just a range of bacteria but dont offer the full range os supplements to run the full zeolite based system although some guys use the Prodibio bacteria and the rest of the supplements. Vodka is cool as a carbon source but be careful with the dosage. I used to use about 2ml on my 700 litre tank. ANother no no with the zeolite system are phosphate removers especially to achieve and ULNS. I was battling to get my nitrates and phosphates to drop below 1ppm and 0.1ppm respectively. I was told to remove the GFO and things are already better. It has something to do with a ratio of carbon;nitrogen;phosphate needed to really drop nutrients.

    My last bit of advice is to take it slow as those stones are very effective and can shock your system with the sudden drop in ammonia
     
  5. seank

    seank

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    But are you not supposed to have a zero showing of Ammonia in your tank anyway??
    Surely Ammonia is normally coupled to a cycling tank???
    Or how does this work?? Do you start a new tank from scratch on Zeovit/prodibio etc or is it more advisable to wait for the cycle to finish before you start adding these additives???
     
  6. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    That low Tony? I used 12ml daily on my 1100l system bud, and still no signs of overdosing (Diatoms).
    It is safer however not to go more than 1ml per 100 litres.
     
  7. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

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    Tagging along...this is a cool thread.

    Im using prodibio....i cant use zeovit due to having a dsb...rigth guys?

    Regarding the prodibio range....bioptim and bio-digest what else should i add as a carbon source?

    Adding potasium will also help as a additive in a system running prodibio right?
     
  8. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    No doubt. Lekker thread we got running after a long time.
    You can use Zeovit if you have a DSB, you just cut the Zeo dosage by half. Rely on your DSB to handle your nitrates and you Zeo for bacteria.
    I dont know what is Prodibio's carbon source, but you can go for Vodka.......
    Potassium is advised in any SPS tank whether you are you using the Zeovit method or not. Thi idea is to keep in NSW ranges which is 380-420. :)
     
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  9. viper357

    viper357 Thread Starter Admin MASA Contributor

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    Thanks. Just to clarify, this will not be on my current system, I am going to start a new system from scratch so will hopefully be able to follow the zeovit method from day 1.

    Is KZ and Zeovit the same method?

    Thanks Tony, I'll see what products are available and the pricing etc. and will let you guys know. So I may not need a reactor depending on what media I use, thanks for that info and for the tip about the phosphate reactor.

    Have a read here Sean - I am going to start a new tank using this method where you can start adding livestock after just 10 days, should suit you with your lack of patience :p Initial cycle - just 14 days? - Korallen-Zucht.de

    From what I understand the prodibio range is as follows:

    Biodigest is the equivalent of Zeobak for the addition of bacteria
    BiOptim is the equivalent of Zeofood7 for Bacteria Food
    Reef Booster is the equivalent of Pohls CV for Coral Food

    I would imagine vodka would be your carbon source, but I haven't read up enough on that yet.


    So........

    Seeing as I will be starting a new tank from scratch, the sump will be slightly different to the norm I assume.

    The sump will basically just be an equipment storage area as there is no need for a DSB or macro algae etc. ? So it will house skimmer, heaters, return pumps, meters, monitors, controllers, dosing pumps and possibly a zeo reactor, is that all?

    Tony, are you still using TM Bio Calcium? Would a calcium reactor not be a better choice for this type of system? I am using the TM on my 4ft and it works very well.
     
  10. lanzo

    lanzo Sponsor

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    Dont want to high jack but....can you perhaps explain the pros and cons of vodka and why we dose it?

    i think ill stick to prodibio method:)

    But if you run a LNS...will one really need to add the reef booster...dont the sps get most of the food from fish pooo:biggrin:...like mekaeel said

    The sump can perhaps also be used as a cryptic zone or just a normal refugium, or what would you guys say?
     
  11. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Yip from day all the better dude! Blast the tank with bacteria.
    The KZ range, is the same products that the guys on zeovit.com use. It is by far the best IMO. I say you take that route as it is safer and if you have any issues, contact the zeovit.com guys :)
     
  12. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Pros : The same as any Carbon source you going to use and it is cheap and readily available. :)
    Cons : The dosage. Do not dose more than 1ml per 100l of water. Should you go higher and your nutrients are too low, there are chances of 'burning' (RTN,STN) your corals. Remember, this can happen with any carbon source you use.

    I used Zeostart, and when that was finished, i swapped over to Vodka, no difference at all. :)
     
  13. Tony

    Tony

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    Sean, with a new tank it's cool to cycle with the stuff. Zeovit shows how to cycle a tank in 14 days using their product and then they fill it up with SPS's and fish no problem. On an existing/running tank that may already have some nutrients present or high in nutrients there is a building up process where one slowly lowers the nutrients by adding bacteria and zeolites at intervals so as to acclimate the corals to the lowering nutrients to prevent shock.

    Mek, I was just following the reccomendation given on the reefkeeping article on vodka dosing. Besides, less in the tank means more for me:razz: but at least I know I can add more without problems
     
  14. Tony

    Tony

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    Dean, I'm still using the Bio Calcium with no problems. My growth is decent. If you want or like a CARX go for it. I just like things simple. Less to go wrong. The only change I have made with my dosing is to split it into two halves so ther is not a sudden spike in alk and calcium
     
  15. riyadhessa

    riyadhessa

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    Sori for hijacking this thread...

    Just a quick question...Cause i am still a bit confuse on this carbon dosing...Like Mekaeel said on a system of 1100 ltrs, you will dose 1ml of Vodka per 100 ltrs of water...

    So if you do not want to dose Vodka and use White Vinegar...

    Does the same apply when Dosing the W/Vinegar...?

    Do you also dose 1ml of W/Vinegar per 100ltrs of water...?
     
  16. Tony

    Tony

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    Not sure on that Riyad but a good question
     
  17. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Im also not sure about that Riyadh. I dont know if vinegar is as strong as Vodka. I know Jacques was using vinegar, maybe he can give us his input.
     
  18. viper357

    viper357 Thread Starter Admin MASA Contributor

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    Thanks for the tips guys.

    Probably, but I think Reef Booster will have a bit more than fish poo in it :p Can only be good, well hopefully ;)
     
  19. viper357

    viper357 Thread Starter Admin MASA Contributor

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    I think I agree with you there, much more control over manual dosing.
     
  20. Mekaeel

    Mekaeel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Dean, it also depends on your bioload (fish). If you have a lot of fish which you are going to be feeding frequently + dosing Reef Booster, you are going to be increasing your nutrients bud.
    As far as I know, SPS rely on 90% photosynthesis and 10% food.
     
  21. Adee

    Adee

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    Howdy, I have aslo gone this route and started about 8 weeks ago with Prodibio. Then in conjuction (2 weeks ago) started using the NeoZeo method with the stuff from Brightwells.

    My question then goes around Vipers 1st post...why would a DSB setup be a no-no?
     
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