Live fish transportation - VERY interesting information

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by jacquesb, 7 Feb 2008.

  1. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    Hi all - I have come across some VERY interesting information - WARNING: IT IS A LOT OF READING!

    Here's the URL for reading on your own:
    Training Manual on Marine Finfish Netcage Culture in Singapore

    Please take note of the "METHODS OF ALLEVIATING STRESS"...... VERY disturbing, actually! BUT it seems to be standard practice...

    Even though the information talks about "live fish for food purposes" - it would be the EXACT same as for marine aquarium fish......

    =========================================================

    IX. Live fish transportation

    1 The need to transport fish live

    Fish farmers in Singapore obtain their seed stocks mainly from overseas and as such rely heavily on good packing conditions covering 8–12 hours transportation time to maximise fish survival and quality. For example, a loss of 50% of the stock would immediately double the price of the remaining live ones and this adversely affects the economics of production. While fish may be harvested and sold fresh dead, farmers prefer to transport marketsize fish live from their farms to landing points where the fish are picked up by lorries fitted with live tanks. The produce is then transferred to restaurants where live fish command higher prices.
    2 The principle of live fish transportation

    The transportation of live fish involves the transfer of large numbers (or biomass) of fish in a small volume of water. During transportation, fish are subjected to handling stress and may die, or worse, survive to provide a stunted, marketable crop. The principles governing packaging, handling and transportation of live fish are essentially to minimise stress.
    3 Major stress factors

    3.1 Dissolved oxygen (DO)
    • The presence of dissolved oxygen does not presuppose an absence of stress as other adverse factors can still exist with high DO, eg. high water temperature, pH changes.
    • Fish demand for dissolved oxygen by fish depends on water temperature, fish density (numbers and size), time of last feeding (level of starvation) and transportation time. It is therefore important to keep the transport water cool and fish biomass at an optimum, with due consideration for possible delays in transportation and the need for additional oxygen by the fish. Starving the fish prior to packing would also slow down ammonia accumulation and minimise unnecessary uptake of dissolved oxygen.
    3.2 Ammonia (NH3)
    Ammonia is excreted by fish and is reported to be toxic at low concentrations of 0.6 ppm. Ammonia excretion by fish decreases as its concentration in water increases, resulting in high blood ammonia. High blood ammonia elevates blood pH which affects enzyme-catalysed reactions affecting metabolism. Starvation and lowered temperatures reduce ammonia excretion.
    3.3 Carbon dioxide
    Fish become distressed when carbon dioxide (from respiration) accumulates rapidly in water since the blood is unable to carry oxygen under these conditions. Low levels of carbon dioxide (3–6 ppm) may be beneficial since it prevents the buildup of unionised ammonia. Carbon dioxide is also a mild anaesthetic and may be considered in alleviating stress during transportation.
    3.4 Handling
    Stress during handling and packing may be so severe as to cause chronic and acute mortalities. Poor handling and packing procedure may also cause osmoregulatory and metabolic disfunctions. Therefore it is important to proceed gently and quickly.
    3.5 Water temperature (heat and cold)
    Water temperatures greater than 28°C accompanied by declining dissolved oxygen and increasing ammonia, create a hostile environment. This is the likely situation if fish are over-packed or transportation is delayed under tropical conditions. Temperatures that are too low (<18°C) can cause thermal shock, especially in young fish. Stressed fish usually succumb to diseases after 1–2 weeks, if not already dead on arrival.
    4 Methods of alleviating stress

    4.1 Reducing transport water temperature
    This prevents thermal stress and improves oxygen stability. Ice should be used in the correct quantities and this depends on fish species and size and also the transportation period. Alternatively, cooled water (18°C) can also be used by lightly sedating the fish in 18°C water prior to packing, and then using water at the same temperature for transport. Under air freighting conditions, this temperature increases by about 1–4°C after 12–14 hours, and fish are usually alive.
    4.2 Insulation
    The use of insulated conmtainers like styrofoam boxes, newspaper lagging helps to maintain the temperature of transport water, being poor heat conductors. They also reduce vibration.
    4.3 Anaesthesia
    Anaesthesia prevents fish hyperactivity. The oxygen consumption of newly-packed fish elevates for 30–60 minutes and declines as fish acclimate to the new environment. The first 30–60 minutes after packing is therefore important. Some anaesthetics used are MS-222, carbonic acid, benzocaine and phenoxyethanol. However the use of certain chemicals for anaesthesising food fish is not to be recommended.
    5 Transportation of live fish

    5.1 Fish are transported live as:
    5.1.1 Imports and exports (eg. food fish fry and fingerlings, aquarium fish) where
    • live fish are transported by air, road or overseas source to the local farm site for culture.
    • live aquarium fish from overseas or local sources are transported by road or air to packing sites (eg. aquarium fish for export or re-export.
    • live food fish supplies from local waters are received and exported by sea or air.
    (a)-(b) are usually by the “plastic bag” method whose advantage is that only cheap materials and equipment like plastic bags, rubber bands, compressed oxygen, cardboard or styrofoam boxes are needed.
    Tables IX/1 & 2 below give some of the actual packing conditions for live fish imported into and exported from Singapore. Aquarium fish are packed singly or in small numbers, with several bags in one carton, while food fish fingerlings are packed at about 500 per bag at two bags per carton. It can be generally observed that as fish size increases, the numbers packed per bag decreases. However, a higher biomass is tolerated by larger fish.
    Table IX/1

    Some actual figures for live fish packing by ‘plastic bag’ method Fish speciesPacking detailsCountry of origin/ destinationFish mean wt (g) or total length (cm)Volume of water (1/bag)Biomass (g/l)No. bags per boxTransporttation time (hr) 1 Food fish fingerlings (imports) 1.1 SrouperPhilippines15–45 g1310–1701–210–12 1.2 SeabassThailand5–105 g670–5201–26–8 2 Marine aquarius
    fish (exports)Europe &
    ASEAN<5 cm0.15-70–10512–40 5–8 cm0.2–0.25-50–7512–40 10–13 cm0.6–0.7-8–1612–40 0.9-440 Table IX/2

    Food fish fingerling packing conditions by the ‘plastic bag’ method and transportation time ranging from 8–12 hours Packing conditionsFish mean wt (g)No./begBiomassTransport water temp. (°C) g/lno./l Fish species 1 Grouper8–1110089–1007–928–29 11–1450102–1284–528–29 11–17501474–528–29 2 Seabass4.5–570–10050–10011–2027–28 >5–1060–10093–14814–3525–28 >10–1550–10094–1808–1627–28 >15–2050133827–28 >20–3035–60200–3007–1027–28 >30–4035–40222–2676–727–28 >40–5035292627–28 >50–7025267427–28 10520–25525527–28 5.1.2 Local produce (transportation of larger-sized fish within Singapore
    • Transfer of live marketsize fish from farm to landing point (by boat in tanks).
    • Transportation of live marketsize fish from landing point to restaurant (in tanks on lorries).
    • Transfer of live fish from farm to farm (by boat, in tanks).
      Table IX/3 gives some of the local transport conditions of market-sized food fish from fish farms. the above mentioned circumstances. Since fish transportation period in open containers is short (<1 hr by boat) stocking biomass can be as high as 1 kg/1 (0.14–1.06 kg/1) by sea transport and 0.1 kg/1 by road (0.5–1.5 hr).
    Table IX/3

    Local transportation of market-sized food fishes Transport conditionsFish mean
    wt (g)ContainerVolume of seawater (1)Fish biomass
    (g/1)Transportation time (hr) Fish species 1 Sea transport+1 (commercial) Transported with aeration and ice Grouper & seabass630–760Styrofoas box36140–3100.25–0.5 Plastic drum968100.25–0.5 Plastic bin2510600.25–0.5 2 Sea transport (experimental) Grouper & seabass106–135Live fish tank+21400302.5 170Plastic bin406420.25–0.5 2226–352Live fish tank+21400661–2 3 Road transport+3 (commercial) Grouper & seabass630–760Fibreglass tank3001000.25–0.5 +1 From farm to landing point
    +2 With through-flowing seawater
    +3 From landing point to restaurant
    6 Live packing trials with marketsize fish

    6.1 The results of packing trials with marketsize grouper using a variety of light sedations are shown in Table IX/4.
    6.2 It was found that the light sedation using cooled water (18°C) was the most convenient, economical and effective to use.
    6.3 As a general rule it is advisable to avoid the chemicals with animals meant for human consumption. Although the use of MS 222 is allowed in the United States for example, they require that no drug is used for 21 days prior to sacrifice.
    Table IX/4

    Packing trials with market-sized grouper

    (Holding period 12–14 hr at 22–25°C) Treatment

    (anaesthesia)Mean wt

    (g)Oxygen:SW volumeDead :
    LiveTransport WaterFinal
    dissolved (Fish: SW weight = 1:3)fish ratioTemperature (°C)pHoxygen
    (ppm) InitialFinalInitialFinal Fish biomass 333 g/l Ice @ 75 g/L500–8002.4–5:11:520–2119–205–867–13 Cooled water600–10002.4:11:3192185.5–64.4–17.2 (18°C) Carbonic acid500–9002.4:18:219–2119–226–875–17 MS 2225003.0:10:120.62385.48 MS 222 + ice @7002–3:10:220.622–23765–6.5 75 g/L Fish biomass 143 g/l Cooled water550-4:10:31821–227610–13 (18°C).6001:10:21819–207.16.220 Cooled water570-4–5:10:31820–2376.39–15 (18°C)6701:12:01818.57.36.8–7.317–18 + ice @ 25g/l Practical IX/1
    Seabass Fingerling Packing


    1 Objective(s)
    1.1 To compare the effect of two packing densities. on seabass fingerling tolerance and survival over 8 hours under simulated air cargo conditions.
    1.2 To compare (1.1) with the response of larger-sized seabass fingerlings packed under similar conditions.
    2 Plan
    Fish mean wt (g)Packing g/ldensity fish/l*1sw vol/bag (l)Fish/bagReplicateGroup 510020714021 520040728022 101001077023 1020020714024 *1 Numbers are adjusted if fish mean weight is not exactlyas stated.
    3 Materials
    3.1 Filtered seawater for fish packing (30–50 l).
    3.2 Plastic bags 90 cm × 51 cm.
    3.3 Dissolved oxygen meter with temperature sensor, pH meter, salinity refractometer.
    3.4 500–1000 seabass fingerlings of about 5g (total length 3.5 cm) and 10g (total length 7.5–10 cm).
    3.5 Measuring board, weighing balance, containers and tanks, aerators, scoop nets, oxygen cylinder, pressure gauge and air tubes, measuring cylinder, rubber bands, styrofoam boxes.
    4 Procedure
    4.1 Acclimation and sedation of fish using cooled water
    • In all treatments, acclimate and sedate the fish (about 30–40 g/l density) slowly in a tank to 18°C water temperature.
    • This can be done by placing 4 kg ice in plastic bottles gradually into the water containing the fish, and constantly monitoring the temperature drop.
    • Remove or add in ice bottles according to whether water temperature is declining too rapidly or remaining stagnant for too long. Observe fish behaviour.
    • Aerate the water throughout.
    • Record dissolved oxygen, pH and temperature in Table IX/5
    • Cool the filtered seawater to 18°C in a separate container, according to the method outlined in (b) and (c). Aerate vigorously.
    • Record dissolved oxygen, pH and temperature and take a sample of the filtered seawater for ammonia determination, (Table IX/5).
    4.2 Fish packing in oxygenated plastic bags
    • Measure 7 litres of the cooled filtered water and pour into a double-layered plastic bag (about 15 cm height).
    • Count and transfer the required numbers of fish into the plastic bag.
    • Insert the delivery tube from the oxygen cylinder well into the water and oxygenate slowly, twisting the plastic bag round the tube to prevent oxygen loss.
    • Gradually inflate the bag so that oxygen occupies about twice the volume of the seawater.
    • Secure the bag with rubber bands, leaving the outer bag free. Make sure the bag is firmly inflated and not flaccid.
    • Secure the outer bag with more rubber bands.
    • Place the packed bag of fish into a styrofoam box lined with newspaper (lagging to prevent rapid temperature change).
    • Store the box in an air-conditioned room (19–22°C) to simulate air cargo temperatures.
    4.3 Observations
    • Observe the fish over 8 hours, noting any signs of stress.
    • If fish appear stressed during the period, unpack and release. Measure final water temperature, pH and dissolved oxygen and take a water sample for ammonia-nitrogen analysis (Table IX/2).
    • If fish appear normal, allow the trial to run for 8 hours. Take final readings as described.
    • Record results in (Table IX/2).
    5 Exercises
    5.1 Does fish size appear to have an effect on survival and water quality parameters, at the same packing density?
    5.2 What factor(s) do you think influenced fish survival most in this observation?
    5.3 What would the approximate optimal packing density be for smaller and larger fingerlings?
    5.4 How would dead fish affect the transport water and the remaining live fish?
    5.5 What problems could arise if acclimation and packing were not done properly?
    Note
    More replications are required and a larger range of fish sizes should be used for more reliable results.
    Table IX/5

    Seabass Fingerling Packing Record Sheet Name: Country: Date: Sample description
    Water quality parameters TemperaturepHDissolved oxygenNH3-N (°C)(ppm) 1. Acclimation and sedation water sample Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 2. Filtered seawater prior to fish packing Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 3. Final transport water samples Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 Practical IX/2
    Marketable seabass packing


    1 Objective(s)
    1.1 To acclimate marketable seabass to sedation water temperature of 18°C.
    1.2 To pack sedated marketable seabass in 18°C and iced transport water.
    2 Plan
    Groups 1 & 2n = 4 fishSedation at 18°CPacking in 18°C filtered seawater. Groups 3 & 4n = 4 fishSedation at 18°CPacking in 18°C filtered seawater + ice at 25 g/l. 3 Materials
    3.1 8 marketable seabass were brought from fish farm and stocked in indoor tanks to stabilise for 4 days.
    3.2 Packing facilities and materials
    Oxygen cylinder and pressure gauge, air tubing, plastic bags (90cm × 51cm), rubber bands, styrofoam boxes, weighing balance, measuring cylinder, aerators, containers.
    3.3 Dissolved oxygen meter with temperature sensor, pH meter, salinity refractometer, sample bottles.
    4 Procedure
    4.1 Acclimation and sedation of fish to 18°C
    • Weigh the fish.
    • Transfer into a container of aerated, filtered seawater.
    • Add plastic bottles of ice gradually; monitor temperature drop.
    • Remove or add in ice bottles according to whether water temperature is declining too rapidly or remaining stagnant for too long. Observe fish behaviour.
    • Record dissolved oxygen, pH and temperature and take a sample for ammonia-nitrogen analysis (Table IX/6).
    • Cool filtered seawater to 18°C in a separate container according to the method outlined in (c) and (d). Aerate vigorously.
    4.2 Fish packing in oxygenated plastic bags
    Groups 1 & 2
    • Measure about 3 times the fish weight of filtered seawater (eg. if fish is 600g, measure about 1.8 litres of seawater) and pour into a plastic bag.
    • Transfer the fish gently into the bag.
    • Measure the height of water in the bag.
    • Insert the delivery tube from the oxygen cylinder well into the water and oxygenate slowly, twisting the plastic bag round the tube to prevent oxygen loss.
    • Gradaully inflate the bag so that oxygen occupies about 4 times the water volume.
    • Secure the bag with rubber bands, leaving the outer bag free. Make sure the bag is firmly inflated and not flaccid.
    • Secure the outer bag with more rubber bands.
    • Place the packed bag of fish into a styrofoam box lined with newspaper (lagging to prevent rapid temperature change).
    • Store the box in an air-conditioned room (19–22°C) for 12 hours to simulate our cargo temperatures and transport.
    • Repeat with 3 more marketable fish.
    Groups 3 & 4
    • Follow through 2(a)-(b) of Groups 1 & 2 instructions.
    • Calculate the volume of cooled (18°C) filtered seawater required to cover the fish (weight of seawater = 3 × wt. of fish).
    • Pour the water into the plastic bag.
    • Calculate the weight of ice required (25g ice/l seawater) and weigh the ice out in a small plastic bag. Secure the bag of ice and place it in the plastic bag of water.
    • Transfer the fish gently into the bag.
    • Follow through 2(c)-(j) of Groups 1 & 2 instructions.
    4.3 Observations
    • Open the bags the next day, after 12 hours.
    • Measure and record dissolved oxygen, pH, temperature and take a sample for ammonia-nitrogen analysis (Table IV/6).
    • Observe fish condition.
    5 Exercises
    5.1 What was the percentage fish survival in both treatments?
    5.2 Is there an advantage in using ice?
    5.3 Can you expect the ratio of fish weight: transport seawater (1:3) to apply to other fish sizes/species? Why not?
    5.4 How long does it take for marketable seabass to be sedated with ice? How quickly will the fish recover?
    5.5 Calculate how long it took to lower 1 litre of seawater at ambient temperature to 18°C.
    Note
    More replications are required and a larger range of fish sizes should be used to make positive conclusions.
    Table IX/6

    Marketsize Seabass Packing Record sheet Name: Country: Date: Sample descriptionWater quality parameters Temperature
    0 Dissolved (°C)pHoxygen(ppm)NH3-N 3 Fish No.1234[​IMG]1234[​IMG]1234[​IMG]1234[​IMG] 1. Acclimation and sedation water sample Groups 1 & 2 Groups 3 & 4 2. Filtered seawater prior to fish packing Groups 1 & 2 Groups 3 & 4 3. Final transport water sample Groups 1 & 2 Groups 3 & 4 D43 naca-9
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  3. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    Way too much to read, have u got the abridged / Jacques version
     
  4. jacquesb

    jacquesb Thread Starter Retired Moderator

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    Hi Warr - basically the thing that has struck me the most, is the following:
    - all fish the is being shipped live, goes through the following 3 processes:
    = starvation JUST before the shipping - which means that the fish reach our shores already starved - and if they were not 100% healthy before the starvation period, they might most likely not make it when we buy it
    = reduced temperatures - they are shipped at +-18 degrees celcius - to reduce their metabolism, that they do not produce too much ammonia during the transit time
    = they actually are "fed" carbon diaoxide, which supposedly act as a "sleeping aid" - that the fish is more on a "trip" during the transport stage

    THAT seems to be the MOST logical reasons why fish mortalities are so high at LFS' - they most likely do not even know this, and do NOT know how to bring the fish out of this "state".....
    ie. DECENT acclimatization processes to SLOWLY make the fish used to the aquarium environments (ogygen rich, warm water, food)....

    Also - that's the most likely reason why people struggle getting some fish to eat during the first few weeks..... AND, this is also another most likely reason why fish most likely starve to death at a lot of LFS', once imported!

    There's a LOT more information in the article, BUT that is what struck me the MOST!
     
  5. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    Excellent info. I was at a LFS couple of weeks ago, and they had just received stock and the guy was saying another major problem is the PH drops so low that they have to acclimatize for days.
     
  6. jacquesb

    jacquesb Thread Starter Retired Moderator

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    That's true - AT least this guy DOES indeed acclimitize for days - many LFS' does NOT do this!
     
  7. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    He has to, because i only buy stock once he has had the unit for 2 weeks.

    And more and more buyers/reefkeepers are demanding this.

    Quite funny, you go into the shop and the tanks have loads of stickers all over them listing the sold creatures. Tang -Bob, 2 x hermits - Fred, White Anenome - Simon etc. etc.
     
  8. koi500

    koi500

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    hi warr7207, wish we were so lucky down in the cape! we have to either buy on sight of fish as the shipment arrives or lose out to the many eager buyers waiting! my personal thanks to jacquesb for this information!! cant count the number of fish, AND rands, lost to fish that dont survive after very careful intro to our tanks!! i have decided i would rather leave the hobby than continue to support this total rip off by fish suppliers! it seems they cannot lose - they sms everyone of their customers as soon as the shipment arrives and are sold out within hours ! its a lotto as to who gets a fish that survives. tried to get an arrangement whereby i would pay for the fish and they would keep it for week and was laughed out of the shop. any suggestions?
     
  9. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    An LFS that practices that sort of behaviour is disgusting and should be totally avoided.
     
  10. jacquesb

    jacquesb Thread Starter Retired Moderator

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    Dean - I must say - I think that Dave/Koi seems to have a point there - now that I think of it - I have never seen any LFS here in the Cape that's seems to be interested in "keeping fish" for people (except Wayne, perhaps)....
     
  11. Kanga

    Kanga Retired Moderator MASA Contributor

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    As backward as what we are here in our little town, my LFS chases people when he unpacks Marines, he has 2 +/- 600L tanks for quarantine, the following day you may start booking and your name gets put on the tank with your name and the fish you want. I you suggest you want to take it now you get told to errr ......... (go away)

    When the quarantine is over the fish get moved into a big white drum and water from the main system gets dripped in for several hours (200L) looks stunning as you view the fish from the top and the light that comes from the sides is softened by the white plastic:biggrin: we call it the bucket salke as he sells quite a few fish at this stage

    Then you can pay and take home.
     
  12. jacquesb

    jacquesb Thread Starter Retired Moderator

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    Hi Kanga - and others - I wonder how many LFS's actually knows the stuff in this article that I posted? Even though they might acclimitize decently, do they actually KNOW that the fish is being transported in water of 18 degrees celsius? Do they actually KNOW that the fish does not get fed for a while to starve the fish, that they (the fish) do not mess up the water they travel in, and do they actually KNOW that the bags the fish are sent in, are filled up with carbon dioxide to "knock out" the fish for the travel process???

    IF they do, do they action the acclimitization process accordingly? How many fish don't they still lose, and do not know what to blame?

    How many fish STILL die, even though it SEEMS that the LFS might acclimitize the fish decently?
     
  13. koi500

    koi500

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    hi kanga, back on my old hobby horse of looking for a "decent" fish supplier down in the cape - cannot ask you to advertise any particular supplier but would appreciate if you could pm me with the name of the guy(s) who is/are prepared to isolate/keep fish until after quarantine ? dying to give them some business cheers dave
     
  14. jacquesb

    jacquesb Thread Starter Retired Moderator

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    Hi Dave - been a while sonce you posted, hey! How are you doing these days? How's your tank? Nitrate issues resolved now with the DSB?

    Kanga now lives in Cape Town, but he was referring to a LFS in PE.... In Cape Town, it's hard to find a LFS with exactly the correct procedures....

    I will PM you the names of the LFS' you can try..... Cheers!
    Jacques

    PS: you are still welcome to come and visit some time.... let me know if you are interested!
     
  15. Obi-Wan

    Obi-Wan

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    True in part

    Hi Jacques, I know you mean well and try to make sense of what you think happens between export AND import points.

    i've seen this old UN FAO manual, it's a great overview of procedures in the aquaculture industry, from 1988 !

    MOST of what you posted refers to FOODFISH.
    As long as it's "alive" in a restaurant/seafood dealership it's saleable AS FOOD, for the table.

    None of our marine spp. are packed TOGETHER in same bag - though I know a Kenyan exporter who does:p

    RSA currency , weak as it is - forces MOST aquariumfish imports direct from country of capture for economics-driven motives.

    THESE places will only go so far as starvation, and MAYBE slight chilling of shipping water, defintely O2,and possibly some antiseptic

    Oxygen packaging is enough for most dispatching methods, no CO2 (as carbonic acid) is used.

    It's only when EU, USA, "modern-educated" supply lines are involved that water chemistry and fish biology is manipulated (tris- buffers, CO2, anaesthesia, etc.).

    Fish respire CO2 , inevitably it lowers pH. This is in a sense, sufficient narcotisation to reduce metabolic demand for further O2 use.

    It happens anyway!

    When you take fish from LFS it may be 25C, when you get home it's 21C...not a far cry from 18C?

    Polystyrene insulation, boxes, multilayer bagging, packing materials ALL REDUCE rapid temperature shifts.

    Valuable, delicate species from wide climate differences are sent with EITHER heat or coldpacks, INSIDE shipping containers....

    So,it'll help by asking LFS country of export .

    THEN, you can deduce standard shipping procedure for THAT country..IF you don't manage to discover the ACTUAL METHOD employed .

    I have learnt even more since AQuality co-owns 3 collection-export facilities, and I dictate shipping, holding, export packaging protocol for them.

    MOST of RSA imports are nowhere as sinister as they COULD be.

    That DOES leave a LOT of room for improvement:
    from supplier CHOICE; right through to LFS Sales, AND everything inbetween.
     
  16. crispin

    crispin

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    well said there Liaquat.

    I would tend to agree that in general we are fairly ignorant of the conditions of capture, storage, shipping, landing selling of the LS we purchase for tanks. Most hobbyists are just that, and thus when purchasing a Tang for your new nano you dont take into account the ethical, or practical aspects as to where your speciman came from, or how it got to you....simply we just want pretty things in our tanks.

    I think what really comes out here (and i truley tahnk Jacques for the article and the summary) is that we proper importation, handling and acclimatization certian LFS/ importer would be able to gather a very dedicated and loyal customer base, if they prove that they are willing to take time, hold fish acclimatize etc etc.

    Would that cost more...LFS slower turn around on LS, more feeding etc etc.Yes probably, but when paying several hundred for a fish i would like to know it has the best chance I can give it to live in my tank, all be it of that costs me slightly more in the deal. Cheaper than loosing a fish.

    Just not sure that a LFS will do that, knowing others are selling same fish at R100 less and faster, thus getting to the client base quicker etc etc.Catch 22 all round
     
    Last edited: 1 Sep 2008
  17. cybervic

    cybervic

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    Kimberley
    Well, the ph in the bags drop to as low as 6 for fish. Corals have it a lot better. My main problem is persistent customers. I sit between the line of making a living or loosing my customers to another LFS not caring about them or the fish.

    Now I know most people say, but why would people support a LFS costing them money? Well I do not know. I just know that if you refuse to sell someone some item he/she is either not ready for or the item is not in good health, they will normally go and buy elsewere... even if it is in the same poor condition.
     
  18. jacquesb

    jacquesb Thread Starter Retired Moderator

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    Hi guys - my point with this whole thing is..... NO ONE IN THE HOBBY REALLY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS TO FISH BEFORE THEY GET TO THE LFS....
    And, Also, added to that - HOW MANY LFS STAFF ACTUALLY KNOW THEMSELVES HOW THE FISH ARE TREATED BEFORE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO "ACCLIMATIZE" THE FISH?

    Until I have come across this article - I have NEVER EVER come across a book, magazine, LFS advice, any other internet article, ANYTHING ON ANY forum like MASA, THAT EXPLAINS HOW FISH ARE TREATED BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER SHIPPING. In order for me to understand what stress fish go through by the time I buy a fish at a LFS, and dump the poor fish into my tank.....

    Now - this was just my poor attempt at making this information known.

    I think that ONCE reefers and newbies know this type of thing, that they will also start treating their pet fish better, and also understand why fish die at a LFS, and also perhaps why fish die soon after they purchase it....

    It is by NO means an attack on any LFS.... BUT - rather an eye-opener to what we do not know..... And perhaps supplying some more light into what happens in our hobby as a whole.....

    IF anyone can add more information to this, it will be greatly appreciated!
     
  19. cybervic

    cybervic

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    Well, it does help LFS in some ways. Hopefully people will be willing to support the LFS taking better care and more risk on him. I myself don't mind paying bit more for superior products.
     
  20. Bob the (reef)builder

    Bob the (reef)builder

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    Jaques, I'm not sure exactly why you are so horrified.

    The article deals with best practice ways to help bring in fish (mainly dealing with eating type fish) with the least amount of stress leading to less mortality and stressed out fish allowing resturants to sell live fish (more profitable).

    They are trying to get live, and as least stressed fish to where they need to go.
     
  21. shiks

    shiks

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    nice piece of info jacquesb ...feel alot more sorry for the little guys after this readin this thread .......will try to respect the pet a bit more ....extra food tonight guys
     
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