Lets talk White spot - prevention and cure

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by ziyaadb, 7 Mar 2011.

  1. ziyaadb

    ziyaadb

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    Guys 1st of lets keep it civil. DO NOT let your temper get in the way and lets hear each other out.

    Lets discuss:
    QT
    QT fish that have the disease
    Treating with Miracle cures i.e garlic, herbtana ect
    Anything else that you can contribute
     
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  3. FransSny

    FransSny

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    Interesting thread you are starting ziyaad ...see a can of worms here , lets hope all takes heed to your first line of the post
     
  4. Tremayn

    Tremayn

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    I like to feed sick fish chicken soup and tuck them in bed :thumbup:
     
  5. Munky82

    Munky82

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    now that is just plain blasphemy!! :eek:



    Everyone know marine fish like tomato soup....
     
  6. FransSny

    FransSny

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    Guys, all fun and games :lol: but lets keep this to topic.

    White spot treatment has been / is a contentious issue at best and we all could benifit from different experiences, results etc.

    BTW...I like my seafood with garlic ;)
     
  7. Tremayn

    Tremayn

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    haha.. I heard that garlic comes out of the pours of the fish and that annoys parasites
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    ok on topic.

    [​IMG]

    Treating whitespot on fish = useless.
    Because whitespot is into skin, under protective slime coat of fish. Anything that can kill whitespot on the fish, will kill the fish.

    Treating whitespot before it infect the fish, after it hatched = useless.
    you got 6 to 24 hours window of opertunity. If whitespot hatch where fish is sleeping, then even less. Your copper treatment must be 100% correct dosage at that moment, too weak, well then its is too weak. Too strong, and you kill the fish.

    Treating whitespot when it fall off the fish 18 hours max. Again too small a window.

    Treating whitespot cyst. not easy either, nothing penetrates. Only siphon them out (but they cement themselves to the substrate) or dry them out works.

    Refer to Urgent help needed Marine Ich ? What is the correct treatment? - Marine Aquariums of South Africa
    A lot of info and good discussion.


    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm
    ok, it is a 2003/2004 article, but still the same parasite. And still relevant.
     
  9. Slagter

    Slagter MASA Contributor

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    In my experience with whitespot, I used to feed regular, nutritional foods and it used to go away. I have plenty of experience with whitespot. I used to have a powder brown Tang. He would get whitespot and I'd feed him garlic enriched Nori, some Ocean Nutrition Supershrimp and Mysis. The next day, fish is whitespot free. It would stay that way for over a month.

    I don't have a QT tank. Which was my own stupidity. I got a Brooklynella infection in the tank which killed off most of my fish...

    I now will 100% categorically state that it is absolutely necessary to have an adequate QT tank and a hospital tank. Otherwise you have what happened to me.
     
  10. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    I believe that the only method that can work is to remove the whitespot cyst from the fish area. Meaning you need to put the fish in another holding tank every couple of days.

    Previous quarantine was complete seperate 90L tank, but that did not work out either as a the cyst stays in the tank. Surface did not get skimmed. Parameters did not work out.

    I'm doing the bucket method combined with quarantine tank.

    1. Bucket 42L translucent bin. For 3 days. No filtration, only small 300L/h pump and heater. Pieces of PVC elbows to hide in
    2. 50% water transferred via 1micron filter to other bucket after 3 days. ensure that no water from the bottom is siphoned out. 50% water change from display. Another small 300L/h pump and heater.
    3. old bucket emptied and all equipment dried in the sun for next 3 days.
    4. Repeat 4 times. Actually 3 is enough. 9 to 12 days. Max period whitespot is on fish is 7.
    5. fish transferred to 90 L system for 3 weeks. Divided in 3 compartment. Almost like a sump. First chamber with caulerpa and light above. Middle fish. Last chamber return pump with long tube back to first chamber and with bioballs filling the return pump chamber

    This is not perfect either. Flaws found so far with this system.
    Fish (Midas Blennie) jumped out, and became catfood. Now got a lid. But lid should not be airtight.

    need to re-acclimatized the fish each time you move them to another bucket.
    50% water change from display to bucket is too much of a change to water parameters. Need another method where the "new" water can be slowly introduced. Not just dumped into the system. Too mush trouble to add 5L every 20 minutes. Got a 25L container with tap that I can open slowly to have water entering bucket over 2 hours. Will see how that works out.

    To be honest, For the last 6 months, I lost more fish in quarantine than I lost in my display. Some of them, my mistake, learning how to improve things. But most due to sickness. So thank goodness.

    In display I lost 2 blue green chromis. I had 12. One jumped. Actually my first fish ever that jumped out. Another disappeared.
     
    Last edited: 7 Mar 2011
  11. jacoc

    jacoc

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    Ok ..Here goes..
    I have lost many of fish in the past.. the main contribution I found was that I tried to intervene, by that I mean catching the poor fela and treating it or handling it, frequent bucket changes new water and meds in a qt tank …white spot will always be there it is like cancer, you can remove your fish from the tank and leave the tank for a year, reef only or without stock and I guarantee you after you add certain species of fish and you fiddle with the thank and start to re arrange rocks and gravel the fish will stress and get white spot and even black spot for what you think no reason…it’s all it takes to be activated (stress)… Well that is my experience with w/s especially the TANG AND SURGEON family…
    I have moved my tank 4 times in the last 6 years and the only white spot I got was last year when I got a flag-Tail Surgeonfish…I bought him healthy from a lfs and left him at the store for 3 weeks before I fetched him to make sure the fish had no hidden ilnesses…when I was satisfied I took him added him to my tank and all was good for a week or so…then I started with the fiddling…this rock here and that one there for about 2days I had my hands in the tank at least 6 times…white spot and black took this fish and changed him and my yelow tang in to a Dalmatian…he looked like a polka-dot grouper an started to develop popeyed disease that is how bad he had it…before this I haven’t had white spot for maybe 10 years, and didn’t even know that black spot exist… I was choked.. asked for help every where even here on MASA, and every one at the time was more interested in my tank and filter setup than the w/s and b/s problem I had, and water quality and skimming and… and… and… until I found my old log book from 10 or so years ago when white spot was my biggest enemy…back then I lost many a fish due to qt methods…catch and release they say when fishing well that doesn’t work in a marine tank environment…didn’t for me any way…

    Here is if I have to…1-although I dislike the idea of catching the fish, if I have to and only if It looks like the fish is developing a illness and I might lose him, I would do it with ease and minimal stress not hat I think that is possible –2- dipping the fish in fresh water for a few minutes -3-release back in to the tank.. fresh water instantly kill parasites especially w/s…and then I will folow these next steps..

    And this is what I do and it has never failed….-1-lower the salinity ..It’s ok corals may not like it but will survive..-2- Increase the tank temp with 2-3 degrees…-3- remove carbon if any..-4- Switch the lights of if you want to, leave 1 white light on…switch of all accessories (skimmer..ect)…-5-Add reef save MYXAZIN from Waterlife follow the instructions on the bottle if you are a bit out it won’t harm the system or inhabitants…after the treatment replace the carbon and that will remove all the meds and re instate all your gadgets (hardware)… it’s only for a few days…and this will kill the free swimming parasites.. and don’t forget the good food (salad, spinnage, pea-skin ..act)

    I have learned and experienced the reef tank syndrome for a long time now and my experience is (simple is better)…fish don’t get ill for any reason especially water parameters..they can handle good water going bad and by bad I mean…not bath water….

    I hope this can help some one…
     
    Last edited: 7 Mar 2011
  12. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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  13. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Freshwater dips

    Freshwater dips are largely ineffective in the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans (Burgess, 1992). The host epidermis and thick layer of mucus form a barrier impervious to osmotic shock (Colorni, 1985). "Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 h, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adaptation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites" (Colorni, 1985).

    Note that the above quote says "most" and not all trophonts. Trophonts embed themselves completely into the epithelium under a layer of skin. This protects these trophonts from dips. As the trophonts grow in size they gradually displace the overlying epithelium. This is when they become visible as white spots or nodules. Exposed trophonts may be susceptible to freshwater dips, but trophonts that survive continue in their life cycle making this method only partially effective at best.

    Freshwater dips can cause osmotic shock. Typically the fish are exposed to the air during the process of capture, handling and transfer, all of which are stressful to the fish. Freshwater dips cannot be depended on as the sole method of treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans and can be counterproductive because they are highly stressful to the fish. They should only be used in combination with other treatments that will successfully interrupt the parasite's life cycle.
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm

    Raising the water temperature

    Temperature manipulation or raising the temperature to 86F is a treatment that has been used with some success against freshwater ick Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. However, the optimal temperature for the reproduction of Cryptocaryon irritans is 86F so raising the temperature to this level will not kill this parasite (Noga, 2000).

    Raising the water temperature to a lesser degree has also been suggested as a means of speeding up the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans. While it is true that the life cycle of this parasite is temperature dependant, speeding up the life cycle may not be helpful to the fish. Raising the temperature can change the blood pH causing further stress to fish already weakened by disease (Bartelme, 2000a. McDonald & Milligan, 1992). If the water temperature was not too low to begin with, then it may be better not to adjust this parameter. If the temperature is adjusted, any change should be small and take place slowly.
    86 degrees Fahrenheit = 30 degrees Celsius
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
     
  14. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Look at the cycle. You left the fish at LFS with other fish where you do not know if they are whitespot free. So even if your fish was the one who introduced whitespot, had it on himself when LFS brought him in, then within 3 weeks a complete cycle could be completed. And fish re-infected. You brought it home, and after 7 days you saw the fully grown Trophonts on the fish. You do something and the next day its all gone. Yes, it worked. But did it? The mature trophonts that became so big that you could see the spots fell off overnight to become Tomonts.
    And then, 3 to 4 weeks later, aargh I got whitespot, help.... Depending on your tank temp. It is just the next cycle. And it will repeat again next month, and the one there after. After about 10 cycles the fish becomes immune to that strain and the whitespot disappear.
    But it seems that fish do not maintain that immunity.
     
  15. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Another problem with catching fish out of display to move them to qaurantine.
    You chase the fish for an hour to try and catch him, removing rocks going crazy, eventually you either succeed or give up. Next day fish is dead anyway.

    .
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

    And in a way that is also the problem with the bucket method.
     
  16. Suhayl

    Suhayl

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    I still dont believe in quarantine. If I had to buy a healthy it should have a chance to survive in my tank. One fish me still unlucky with is the Copperband, for some unknown reason the last one jumped out of the tank. I had some whitespot outbreaks but just treat as normal. I would increase water quality by doing water changes, running new carbon, and feeding variety of foods. My eight year old Powder Blue use to get white spot on and off before but survived. My tank went through a bad patch when I went to Bangkok last year. I tank was parctically running on just 2 stream pumps, The return pump burned so no skimmer running too. When I got back the fish were a bit sick and all had whitespot. After couple days fixing the problems and doing large water changes the fish were back to normal. Fish will get sick if your tank not stable. I think more fish die than survive when sold at the pet stores.
     
  17. jacoc

    jacoc

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    Sorry Riaan...if you read my story you will see that I mention that the fish was healthy when I bought it…the fish was also in the store for over 3 months before I took it home I only bought the fish from the store after it has been in the store for 2 months and I frequently visited the store at least 2 times a week and there was no w/s in the tank…it was in a reef tank with other flag tails and yellow tangs and some purculars....and since then it is now 10 m0nths later and still no white spot …so what happened to the cycle??
    …I went back to my first post for advice on the black and white spots and the fish actually only got sick after 2 weeks since I added it to the tank… and the same I fiddled with the L/R in the tank and a day later the w/s appeared and I kept fiddling until I was happy with the scaping...as I said what works for one might not work for a another...
    According to science my reef shouldn’t work so what is the right or wrong…??
     
  18. jacoc

    jacoc

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  19. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    OK Jaco, with more info, the story change.

    Whitespot survival is very low in nature. But in the confines of a tank, it is a lot easier for the free swimming tomites to find a host.

    I had 2 pacific butterfly fish, small midas blennie and purple dottyback in a 90L for a month. Yes had to suck the bottom clean, or try to do it. Anyway, on 31 December, all broke out with a lot of whitespot. Lost all by end of New Years day. Crap start to the year...

    As mentioned I lost more fish in quarantine than I was actually able to put in the display tank. Quarantine techniques? maybe must get it better? Got Ocealaris clown in there at the moment. will report back on him.

    Also certain fish like Copperbands cannot be quarantined.
     
  20. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    Was I flung with mud or garlic?:thumbup::) I prefer garlic, hehehe, except froma hairy Med woman!LOL The internet is a wondeful place, just to much info Jaco.:peroni:
     
  21. jacoc

    jacoc

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    Suhayl…I have never kept a Powder Blue as it must be one of the most difficult fish to keep success fully…I admire you for keeping yours for 8 years …surely any advice you give must be respected and can only be good…I agree that if one purchase a healthy specimen it chances of survival will be great if added to a stable environment (established system)…
     
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