Advanced Topic Lets discuss mangroves in our sumps

Discussion in 'Advanced Topics' started by Andre@ReefAquatics, 7 Apr 2014.

  1. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Sponsor

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    Lets discuss mangroves in our display tank or sumps

    Probably a sensitive topic. But mangroves are marine aquatic trees. I know by law it's illegal. How does a mangrove tree in your sump differ from your bonsai tree in your lounge?

    Controversial but a valid discussion? How can a reefer having a prized mangrove growing in his sump affect the plantations that exist in the equatorial regions?
     
    Last edited: 8 Apr 2014
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  3. brentch

    brentch

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    Possibly the fact that they are not grown in nurseries for public "consumption", so most would be taken from the wild? Just as most marine species are imported from the wild.

    Also, mangroves can be found down to around the East London area, so they aren't strictly tropical.
     
  4. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    I speak for reefers that are experienced in growing all sps, im sure a flourishing mangrove tree in their sump will be their prize possession.

    Any thriving sps colony would need to take a back seat.

    Would love to get opinions.
     
  5. Kunhardt

    Kunhardt

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    Nothing wrong with having Mangroves...its not illegal to own them, but illegal to remove them from the estuaries...

    I went down to the local estuary a few years back and the nature conservation guy told me it was the fact that they don't want people disrupting the estuaries themselves that is why it is illegal...apparently the mangroves are not even indigenous to SA so it itself is not a protected species.

    On that same visit I was told they were more than happy to give me one or 2 pods that drop off the trees when in season and I could take these home to grow out into a tree. Had 2 mangroves in my sump the whole time I had my 6ft tank running...couldn't tell you if they helped with nutrient export or not though as I had so much removal on that system...who's to say which was and wasn't working.
     
  6. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    Impo we can do more damage cultivating reefs for fish and corals that we can do in taking mangrove shoots from the estuaries
     
  7. RynoParsons

    RynoParsons

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    Ive always wanted mangorves im my sump or even in a corner 9f my DT.
     
  8. brentch

    brentch

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    Mangrove forests are definitely indigenous to RSA. The species that constitute those forests are not endemic to RSA though.

    Mark, is it possible that the ranger was not talking about the white mangrove that was introduced to EL? I heard a story that the white mangrove was planted there with the other species...

    Damage none the less? Mangroves serve many vitally important ecosystem services that are crucially important to humans and other ecosystems. They serve as water purifiers, nurseries, storm buffers, carbon sinks etc. The effects of taking shoots may have important consequences to the recruitment of established trees to the mangrove system. If there is a law on it, there's a reason why that's so...
     
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  9. LCornelius

    LCornelius Moderator

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    I would love to own one, but one little mangrove will make zero to very little difference to water quality.

    It will boil down to bragging rights, which is something I do not agree on.

    Why hide it in your sump then?
     
  10. jclaas

    jclaas

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    It's better to take a seed then :)
     
  11. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Main thing is it's illegal to remove anything from a nature reserve or protected area.
    Doesn't matter how many trees there appear to be, if I only take one, the next person also only takes one...there how many reefers in the country?
    Also if I can take one mangrove, why can't the next person take one of another species?
     
  12. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    How much fish and coral do we harvest in the trade? Many harvesters use cyanide. How long does it take for an sps to grow and harvest? How long does it take take a mangrove shoot to sprout 2 leaves. Mangroves are not rare but abundant. They are plants that shoot seeds and grow.

    If ever wild coral harvesting should be regulated 10 times over mangrove shoots. Just based on abundance and growth rates.
     
  13. LCornelius

    LCornelius Moderator

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    That is how we destroy species, o look, there is allot of it, lets take it!

    We need to conserve more and want less!
     
  14. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    When you start a tank your mission is to grow corals not plants, when you advance to the pinnacle in reefkeeping you probably have enough knowledge to grow mangroves and won't kill it based on your fundamental salty knowledge.

    Only experienced reefers will experiment with a mangrove tree. Cutting out the majority of the demand.

    All newbie reefers experiment with LFS and kill it. And lots die in their hands with little experience and impulse bying. Improper water parameters etc

    Another question that now springs to mind is a mangrove shoot easier to keep than a euphyllia coral?
     
    Last edited: 7 Apr 2014
  15. shan

    shan

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    Hi Andre

    I do not agree with your last point because if it is for sale at an LFS, a newbie will buy it because it is cool.

    I do agree with your other points. I grew up near mangroves and in season, their pods drop like seeds from a veld plant. Most of these seed pods die anyway - just like most of the seeds from veld plants. On a regular basis, I see these seed pods at the beach. If these were to be collected sustainably, then I believe that we could keep mangroves. The problem is the "sustainability" vs GREED factor.

    I would love to keep mangroves. On nanoreef.com, there are many tanks with mangroves in the display - and it is here that I agree that it should be in the display and not hidden in the sump. If I had a sump room with a hugh sump, then I would create a spot just for them to be viewed and not hidden.
     
  16. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    All very valuable inputs on this topic, our opinions will differ and this makes a healthy discussion, thanks for your contributions.
     
  17. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i think this is an interesting debate, id love to have mangroves, from what i understand the red mangrove is indigenous and is full up in the transkei region... whites im not so clued up on...

    i have seen many a system with these plants grown in an almost a bonzai form in a lovley pot linked to the system for nutrient export in some manner...

    if they are beneficial and worth the hasstle as one singular plant im not sure? perhaps someone in the know can offer some input.. but they are lovley as an addition..

    the legallity surrounding their collection is somewhat vauge it may seem like a simple no brainer but perhaps for the purpose of educating others we need more conclusive answers as to why they should not be collected..
     
    Last edited: 8 Apr 2014
  18. MistaOrange

    MistaOrange

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    Yes mangroves are cool to have in our tanks/sumps but for it to actually do something for nutrient export you'll need about 5 mangroves per 10 liters but mangroves will chow Mg like no tomorrow. If you going to have one or two in the tank it wouldn't do much but grow & look pretty... From what I understand if the propagules have not rooted or any sign of rooting & still in the seed state it's legal if you have the permission from the parkies to collect. Collecting rooted propagules are illegal...

    I could be wrong but that is what I can remember from a few years back...

    I'm sure there are a few threads here on mangroves...
     
  19. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    Anymore new ideas on this topic
    Emailed the DAFF with no reply been weeks?
     
    Last edited: 30 Apr 2014
  20. Dylan Bailey

    Dylan Bailey

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    If you don't mind me chiming in here, I have had some experience on this topic, having been involved in mangrove research. Forgive me if I ramble on a bit more than I should...

    A point of clarification, all three mangrove species that occur in South Africa, Rhizophora mucronata, Avicennia marina, and Bruguiera gymnorrhiza, are indigenous and protected (there is a fourth species, but its range only extends slightly into SA from Mozambique). It is illegal to both collect and posses any of these species, including their propagules, without a permit. The protection of these species is under review and they will most likely make the TOPS list in the next few years. Several water supply projects in the Transkei region are threatening the mangrove forests as fresh water is being dammed up and diverted away from the rivers. Another major threat are the ever increasing numbers of cattle that constantly browse the sprouting mangrove "seedlings".

    On the topic of keeping mangroves in aquaria, the biggest challenge is that mangroves have incredibly sensitive root systems, any attempt to transplant them has at least a 50% failure rate when the trees are still small, and a 100% failure rate when the trees are more than 1 year old. I speak from experience, having assisted in the cultivation of several hundred individual mangroves for research purposes. Also, the roots of the mangroves eventually strangle themselves in a restricted space, and the tree ultimately dies after a few years. Without the ability to successfully transplant, the tree is ultimately doomed after a few short years when in captivity.

    The mangrove display I have here at Bayworld was put together in 2007, all the mangroves were sprouted from propagules in a mixture of local estuarine mud and sea sand in a +/- 2.5 m3 dedicated exhibit. The system itself has a 6 hour tidal inundation cycle that assists with the gradual replacement of water through the mud bed. This water replacement is important to prevent the deep mud beds (+/- 800mm) from stagnating. The largest tree at the moment is just over 3m tall, now 7 years old. Unfortunately, the display is reaching its end of life, as the root bed is becoming strangled and a few trees have already died. Most public aquariums that have had living mangrove exhibits eventually abandon them for this reason. To make it sustainable, a second exhibit needs to be started up and new propagules planted so that the old one can be taken down eventually and restarted.

    One last note, on nutrient uptake in mangroves. Mangroves ultimately derive their nutrients from the mud bed and not the water column itself. During big storms and floods, new sediments are washed down into the estuaries where the mangrove forests buffer and slow the flooding water, causing nutrient laden sediments to settle out and replenish the mud bed. These mud beds are not dead, but thriving with large communities of organisms from crabs and shrimps to specialized bacteria that only grow on the roots of the mangroves.

    Please respect the fact that the mangrove estuaries in South Africa are in great peril, we may very well see them disappear within our own lifetimes!

    I hope you are all still awake after that :)

    Edit:
    A list of protected trees from the DWAF website, which includes mangroves: http://www2.dwaf.gov.za/dwaf/cmsdocs/4116___poster%20protected%20trees.pdf
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2014
    Andre@ReefAquatics likes this.
  21. Andre@ReefAquatics

    Andre@ReefAquatics Thread Starter Sponsor

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    Thanks a stack for this Dylan, this is the type of experienced info I was looking for. This does give me more insight into this vague topic.
     
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