Ins and outs of dosing copper.

Discussion in 'Marine Fish Discussions' started by magman, 9 Nov 2010.

  1. magman

    magman

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    Hi all, please help here with understanding copper, the cuprazin from waterlife, any tips, tricks, to try and understand it.

    1)what are the pros and cons of copper, namely the waterlife cuprazin, is there any side affects to fish, does it smell/put them off their food? I know an overdose is lethal
    2)Does it work on parasites also,
    3)The cuprazin says dose day's 1,2,3,4,6,8,10, if there is no improvement, you continue dosing on the recomended days, but will that not surely lead to a overdose in copper which I know is serious? Also I will be doing heavy waterchanges, will this not also affect/dilute the strength?
    4) How soon can you add other meds, after all copper is removed?
    5)Any new fish I buy, can they go into copper (bear in mind that they may not be used to eating
    6)Dwarf angels cannot handle copper, but what about anthias?
    7)anything else to watch out for?Dangers
     
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  3. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    YUP copper is ineffective if under dosed and lethal if overdosed. Take care.
     
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  4. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    Thanks bud, I will be doing it in a large qt tank, I am thinking of going 50% the dosage, and then gradually increase it with water changes, I will be doing 30% water changes a day,
     
  5. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Cool bud.
    :thumbup:
    Please Don't do it without a test kit. You will wast your time or kill the fish. Dosing copper is a fine line.
     
  6. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    I know what you mean, my problem is I am dealing with a wide range of parasites,and just cannot be identified. at least in the qt tank (it's 380lt's) it can be maintaned easier. Also then when I get new fish later, and the more expensive fish, I know my tank is sterile.
    I might even put my shrimps and hermits in a third tank, and fatten up some crayfish for christmas in the DT,
     
  7. Trev

    Trev

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    I dodnt have much experiance with cuprazin but here is what I have found with some other products

    1) It will kill a huge amount of parasites including the dreaded brooknella, it does not smell but it does make the fish slightly uncomfortable but they should continue to feed I have even had new fish start eating while in a copper treatment. It will discolour you silicon and some slightly pousus plastics.
    2) It is most efective on parasites
    3) Copper is absorbed by many things so it will decrease alot every day so that is why you dose daily but rather use a test kit that just follow their dosing methode keep the consentration between 0.3 - 0.5 ppm remember that a dosage of 0.3 will kill 95% of your parasites so only when dealing with the worst ( I hate this word ) Brooknella do you realy need to go to 0.5ppm doing big water changes is not advised as you are then removing the copper and waisting your bucks and time.
    4) Its a variable but safely 5 days
    5) Yes this is in fact recomended if they can tolorate copper
    6) Most Dwarf angels are fine in copper but some specialy the Flame will perish if exposed to copper
    7) Make sure you use a test kit that works with the specific copper you are using as this is a issue I think the waterlife product is chelated so your test kit must specify it is for chelated copper.

    Good luck and you will soon see that if used for the right reasons and in the right way copper is a awsome tool to battle those nasties
     
  8. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    Bud i have followed some of your issues and get the feeling you are desperate and looking for a fix. You have tried many things with little results. Please don't get me wrong. I am trying to help you.

    For sick fish.

    1) as a first step try and distinguish if the disease is Bacterial or parasite. very important. Bacterial diseases need antibiotics for cure. Antibiotic are unlikely to rid a fish of parasites.
    2) Determine the parasite. Best done by a scraping. The identification makes treatment very easy with a high success rate.

    3) Ok no scraping available and we are sure the disease is a parasite. First choice is a FW dip. Forget the 2 and 5 minute dips they are a wast of time. Your fish must be healthy enough to withstand a minimum of 7 minutes. 10 is better. Repeat a day or so later.

    4)After FW treatment treat with Sulfathiazole and or Neomycin. This is to stop bacterial infections infecting the wounds the parasites make. If you identified the disease in point one as bacterial use the same drugs.

    5) As a cocktail for unidentified parasites and as a treat all for new QT fish one can use this cocktail. It is not invert safe.

    Formaldehyde 37% 1 ml/100 l
    Malachite green 1 ml/100 l
    Methylene blue 250mg/100 l
    Praziqantel 200mg/100 l

    You can also add a neomycin dose but then do not add the Methylene blue.

    Mix together and dose once for three days. Water change and observe.

    Sterilizing the QT tank.

    The best way to sterilize/disinfect a tank is to bleach it. 35ml of bleach for every 10 l water. A thorough rinse is required afterwards and then use a dechlorinator like antichlor. let stand for a few hours and discard old water.

    One other thing. Diseases jump from tank to tank. So make sure your QT tank is away from other tanks and always use dedicated nets, towels and cleaning equipment. If you are not sure as to the status of a net or bucket. Bleach it.

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. Trev

    Trev

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    Very very good info NJ this is also almost identical to the route I take, I agree 100% on the 7 - 10 min at least FW dip. For me as a sure win cocktail if Im not sure of the parasite id FW dip in the morning then a Formalin dip in the evening. For any worms or internal issues I go with Metrondizol. If the fish is available I almost always go with a dip route
     
  10. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    the problem is I am dealing with differant parasites, and there is several

    last time I dipped (a clown) was for about 18mins

    My main aim is rid the fish of all parasites and disease's, the fish are building up their immunity's slowly, and to let the dt run fallow, then after new year get the fish back in. Also while I have this range of parasites in the tank, I cannot add any more fish to the DT, the current fish are building up an immunity, but new introductions will be highly sucseptable and especially delicate expensive fish.
     
  11. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    @Trev i disagree on a few points. Copper is very ineffective in treating Brooklynella. The most effective is FW dip and a combination of Formaldehyde 37% and Malachite green. There are some very interesting articles and ref's. Look these up when you get a spare moment. Long heavy reading

    R F Nigrelli 1970 Journal of Protozoology
    Bassleer 2004 Diseases in marine aquarium fish.
    Bob Fenner, wet web media "clownfish disease" (and other's) Brooklynellosis
    G Blasiola 1980 Disease prevention and control.


    Also 0.5 ppm free cupric irons is lethal. one should never go above 0.35 ppm


    Feeding when dosing copper is affected. Copper puts a strain on the liver and fish go off their appetite.

    I rem reading an article about copper testing. not sure if it was a RHF article or a Bob Fenner one. I don't seem to find it. But you are right one must make sure one is measuring the correct irons.
     
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  12. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    after about 10 days of copper, I will dose formalin as well, in case any fish are carrying any strains of brook, I have about 8 weeks to dose the fish, and will take my time and cover all.
     
  13. ziyaadb

    ziyaadb

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    sorry just a bit off topic gents what would be the best option to treat for whitespot? its affecting my regal and flame bad but not so much my yellow and sailfin? i knw i cant copper my flame whats the next best thing?
     
  14. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    I have been pondering a little today on our discussion last night and think the following is also important. When i have been referring to copper treatment it is what i say, "copper treatment" That is Copper sulfate (CuSO4 5H2O). Aquariusts often refer to medications that are available with a copper base as treating with copper. But most of these medications have other elements in them. So the medication is not purley copper, but a cocktail with a copper base.

    @Magman you are wanting to use "Cuprazin" so lets use it as an example. Cuprazin's ingredients are Copper sulfate, Formaldehyde and Malachite green. I eluded to the addition of the two later ingredients as enhancing the performance of copper earlier in this thread. But herein lies a potential issue. We know that Cu irons treat best at 0.25 -0.3 ppm l and that the Cu level must be maintained there for at least 14 days for best results. The danger comes when we test the Cu level and it is down so we add extra Cuprazin. This is fine if the treatment is in a QT tank and the Cu uptake by carbonates is minimal, however, if the Cu uptake is large and we add cuprazin to increase the Cu level we are at risk of overdosing the Formaldehyde and Malachite green. One must just be aware of this.

    This is why professionals, when forced to use Copper, prefer to keep the Cu level with a Copper sulfate solution and dose the Formaldehyde, Malachite green or methylene blue individually.

    @Trev the above probably explains why you are of the opinion that Copper is good for Brooklynella. The copper medication you use most likely has Formaldehyde and Malachite green in it. Both are the recommendations for Brook treatment. So when you are lifting the Cu level to 0.5 ppm l, you are actually increasing the Formaldehyde and Malachite green dose. I must admit i could not understand why you were so sure copper treated Brooklynella, then the possibility dawned on me.



    Formaldehyde and Malachite green. Treat for 10 days giving daily FW baths.
    Also treat with an antibacterial agent like neomycin or sulfathiazole.

    For delicate fish hyposalinity is also an option but is a very slow process.
     
    Last edited: 10 Nov 2010
  15. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    Bud, thanks for your help today, and your service rocks bud, I owe a few guys onm the forum for there help, and you got the meds off so quickly, shot bud, I owe you

    NJ, I have found the seachem cuprimine, Thanks to Trev, and the seachem paraguard,

    I will dip in the paraguard for 2 hours (all the fish from the DT), then I will put them in the qt, and then run them in the cuprimine, I will actually mix the cuprimine, and take a day to drip it in, I am much happier going the cuprimine, I will then also dose formalin after about 3-4 weeks, I have 8 weeks to play with.

    Also the seachem cu test kit is on it's way, so I can moniter the cu levels properly.
     
  16. Trev

    Trev

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    Julius you sneaky bugger

    You are welcome man always trying to give the best service namatter what party you are from LOL. Good luck boet and give lots of feedback

    Trev
     
  17. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    Trev, got the meds today, thanks a million bud, really appreciate the amazing service.
    regards the formalin, how many ppm was it? 20?
     
  18. Trev

    Trev

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    Iesh man you can kill a whole lot with 20ppm a whole lot. I have always used a dip dosage of 1.25ml in 10L of water with a dip time of 1 hr but if the fish do well I leave them for a further 15min, just be careful with that stuff its nasty real nasty.

    You are welcome boet

    Trev
     
  19. Submariner

    Submariner

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    I have add six reef tanks in total and have never used medication i have been tempted on a few occasions but i have always found other alternatives

    There is always a alternative to meds.

    If fish are sick after being quarantined correctly then there is normally a underlying problem in your tank.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2010
  20. magman

    magman Thread Starter

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    I got all the fish out, bathed them in paraguard for 2hr's, then into the QT after acclimitisation. I did not believe how 5 minutes after going into the QT tank, the emp was begging for food, I fed it and it ate. Even putting pipes in the tank, I can almost stroke the emp, it is really tame.

    With regards the copper, I am only going to run a half dose, and run it at 250-300, so today I dripped in 1/4 of the recomended dose, then tommorrow will add another 1/4 of the dose. I will test on Sunday, do a water change, then bring the level upto 300-350.
     
  21. Trev

    Trev

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    Yeah that paraguard is really soft on the fish while being very hard on parasites at the same time but thats the great thing about M green. Holding thumbs for you bud
     
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