Increasing Water Volume.

Discussion in 'Biological/Natural Filtration and Deep Sand Beds' started by Broder, 3 Nov 2011.

  1. Broder

    Broder Mudshark

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    The fish in my 1.5mx65cmx65cm tank are starting to reach adult size and are thereefore putting quite a burden on the biological filtration, with phosphate level shooting up to 0.25ppm. I've decided to plumb a Jo-Jo Slimline 750l tank into the system, to increase the water volume. It should roughly double it.

    My question is, should I add sand into the bottom to increase DSB area or should I keep it bare for easy maintenance? Also, is this enough of an addition to make a difference?

    Any other advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
     
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  3. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    To an extent i think it can be counter productive as unless your skimmer is upsized it may battle, initially it should work but in the long run (and unless you are doing some nice sized waterchanges) you may slip into a scenario wherby the phos levels etc catch up..

    If you do add the water volume (which i personally would do despite my statement above), i would be using it to do the complete volume added (in your case 750lt) be drained and replenished when doing waterchanges..

    i would also leave out the DSB/sand and allow it to be 100% servicable for WC..
     
  4. AfricaOffroad

    AfricaOffroad

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    More water will create a bigger buffer against parameter changes.
    With no increased biological filtration, your original problem still persists.
     
  5. Broder

    Broder Thread Starter Mudshark

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    If I understand you correctly, you're saying that I should do 50% water changes? I'm doing 30-40% changes on my current 750L system, but just to get P level in check.
     
  6. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    The addition of extra volume of water helps keep the water parameters stable. It will not help reduce nutrients. You will now have to filter a bigger volume of water so that means bigger equipment etc.

    But considering your system, and that you are doing this to reduce phosphate your ATS would have to be increased. If the issue was nitrate i would recommend a remote DSB. So the idea of adding sand to the bottom of the 750l drum is IMO only necessary if you also have nitrate issues. But of course a bigger ATS and jojo with sand would give better stability all round.
     
  7. ScottK

    ScottK

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    I understand that adding the additional volume will add no active method of reducing the nutrients as the load remains the same but surely it will give more volume to "dilute" the current load? If you are doubling the volume would you not expect 0.25mg/l of NO4 to drop to 0.125mg/l?
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Why Leslie?
    As long as the bioload stay the same, why would the skimmer suffer?

    Those slimline tanks are tall and narrow. So I doubt if you can do any maintenance in them. So a DSB in the bottom, not too sure on that. Maybe some live rock, but you need to ensure that you can suck or blow the water through the rock to prevent excess detritus settlement in the bottom on the container.

    Some of the other Jo Jo containers, that is flat with big opening could work better as a remote DSB. As you can reach in and do some maintenance when needed.

    in my opinion, having extra 1000L tank for example, and nothing living in it, trace element wise it will be OK in the beginning. And your livestock should use what ever they are currently consuming. Providing you keep up with your current volume and its 10% water changes, then the trace element levels should stay the same. Not doing the weekly 10% changes, would allow that theoretically the elements that is extra available from the 1000L to be used. And then the levels would drop. Forcing you to start making bigger water changes.

    pumping water towards this Jo Jo tank must be from the return pump, to minimize the possible detritus being pumped into the tank.
     
  9. Broder

    Broder Thread Starter Mudshark

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    That seems to be the general concensus then, and it makes total sense. Increase volume to stablise parameters, but increase filtration as well. So I'll look at increasing the size of the ATS. I'll also increase the water changes from the weekly 100l (15% of 750l) to 200l (15% of 1500L). My skimmer is an RO5000, so should cope with the entire system quite well.
     
  10. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    ( @RiaanP answered you here aswell) definatley would need to upsize equipment as you will have more nooks and crannies where dirt will collect and more surface area for bacteria to colonise aswell..

    dilute initially yes... but for how long? the parameters will catch up, what needs to happen here is a new corrective reduction method found and implemented.. by adding the drum you are merely expanding the size of the problem..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  11. Broder

    Broder Thread Starter Mudshark

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    Well... not really. It would remain the same. But as I've said, I'm doubling up on water changes.
     
  12. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    yep expanding meant as in same problem/values just larger volume to deal with..

    happy?;)

    but remember you will have to up the waterchanges to make up for the extra volume the skimmer will be handling.
     
    Last edited: 3 Nov 2011
  13. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    the slimline tank it 1800mm high. On my tank, my rim is at 1600mm. So instead of pumping to display, I can just pump to slimline tank. To the top, have bottom flow out back directly under gravity to display. So no extra pumps are needed.
     
  14. Broder

    Broder Thread Starter Mudshark

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    Thanks Riaan. That's exactly how I was thinking of doing it. Do you have any extra flow pumps in the tank, or does the inlet cause enough flow to move the water around?
     
  15. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    lets say your return pump delivers 2500L/h at 1.8m
    So its a downward flow of 2500L/h
    settlement should move out.

    I would put a PVC stand at the bottom, with some extra live rock on top of it. So there is a space of at least 200mm below the rock. So the rock can act as extra filtration. Loads of worms should crawl around to eat settlement on the rocks. Maybe just extra heater in the tank, depending on where it stands, especially winter time.

    I doubt if you need any extra powerheads in there. You do not want to keep things in suspension.
     
  16. leslie hempel

    leslie hempel Moderator MASA Contributor

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    i would leave it bare, and use an airpump to circulate the water, i have used this method before and it worked very well, you will not believe the pod polulation you will develop.. a little bit of controlled mulm isnt a bad thing it will provide a place for the pods to scavange.. i usually insert a 20lt bucket within the drum i have to do this..
     
  17. seank

    seank

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    I have sand and live rock in my Jo-Jo tank..... As well as a lionfish, etc. never feed them. The Jo jo also acts as a ats and the life inside the tank is amazing at night. Have 3 pumps from my sump to the jo jo and gravity feeds back to the return. More than enough flow
     
  18. Broder

    Broder Thread Starter Mudshark

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    Thanks guys. I think I'll also add sand. I doubt that you can have too much dsb area.
     
  19. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Just put an elbow on the inside, for bottom outlet, so that it will stick up and out of the sand. In the middle of the drum. Stick out the sand by at least 50mm.

    Loads op pods will be flushed back to display. Nice
     
  20. Broder

    Broder Thread Starter Mudshark

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    Eish... now I'm confused. I thought that you let the top overflow into the display?
     
  21. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Nope pump water from sump, into top of JoJo tank

    then the bottom outlet, is very low down, close to the bottom. So on the inside, put a short 50mm PVC pipe, elbow, up, and 200mm PVC upward. So that the outlet is in the middle of the tank, middle of the circumference, centre of the sand, 50mm at least from the bottom so that it does not suck in sand

    On the outside, have another elbow pointing up, with 1.7 - 1.8m upright PVC, the top at level with tank rim.
     
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