Ideal DSB SIZE or footprint

Discussion in 'Biological/Natural Filtration and Deep Sand Beds' started by RiaanP, 17 Aug 2009.

  1. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    We all agree DSB's are good, and everybody wants one.

    A lot are said about
    • depth (around 12-15cm)
    • particle size ( finer the better)
    But what about the most important part - the square size of the DSB, basically the length multiplied by the width

    Summarizing all 3 sticky threads on DSB's
    • Sihaya -
      Ok, I'm taking middle point of 12.
    • Galibore -
    • Dallasg / Ron Shimek - More about the L*W*h multiplied by the particle size to calculate total surface area for bacteria to live on.
    Using Sihaya and Galibore suggestions on a 1.5 by 600mm by 600mm tank gives us
    • Sihaya - 1.5*.6*.6 - 540L (using 12cm square) as middle point - 6480cm2. Providing sump is also .6 wide that gives me that the DSB must be 108cm long.
    • Galibare - 1.5*.6*3/4 = 6750. same .6 wide sump and that gives a sump that must be 112.5 long.
    • Dallasg / Ron Shimek - Unless I missed it he does not go into the width by length option but more into the particle size in a certain area. So let us exclude this option. His result, the finer the better. So we will only keep that info.
    So both Sihaya and Galibore recommendations are in this setup the same (ok 4.5cm difference - so what?). I think Sihaya option is better as it allows for deeper and shallower tanks.

    Conclusion:
    On a 1.5m tank, a DSB of 30*45cm will not work. It will work, but not as effective as a 110*60cm DSB

    Interesting note: On Ron Shimek page, He mention adding Nasarius snails (or any sand burrowing snail in my opinion) at a ratio of 2 to 5 per square foot (929cm2).
    That will be as in above example 1.1*0.6m = 6600 / 929 = 7.1, multiplied by 2-5 snails, between 14 and 35 snails!
     
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  3. magman

    magman

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    Instead of snails, I am going to try sea lice, so confirm you want something to burrow/move the sand around a bit?
     
  4. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    If you take all this into consideration, and factor in that your skimmer and return pumps needs to be in the sump then it basically comes down to that the sump needs to be as big or bigger than the display tank apart from height. I cant see a lot of people having this.
     
  5. RiaanP

    RiaanP Thread Starter Moderator

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    Yes Magman, I got 2 Babelonion Whelks doing a good job down there. They are bigger, move faster and turn more than Nassarius snails, I doubt you need that many then. Hermits work as well. But its difficult to give a value like so many for this size DSB because it all depends on the Hermits size.

    Yes Marius, that is my conclusion.In my example the DSB is 2/3 of DT size. Add skimmer compartment and return pump section, and your sump needs to be as big as your DT. Yip agree, do not see that a lot.
     
  6. Nemos Janitor

    Nemos Janitor

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    @RiaanP i agree and I also assume that those sizes are for tanks that have a shallow or no substrate. So a tank with a deep substrate +- 100mm would not necessary need such a large DSB. Or am i missing the point?
     
  7. Neil H

    Neil H Moderator MASA Contributor

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    Interesting read, thank you Riaan for doing the summary work here ....

    For my 2c worth on this subject ....

    As humans we like rules ..... we like structure.... but with nature, for every rule presented there is an exception, without fail as soon as a rule is generally accepted something or someone will come along and disproove it.

    Personally my vote is make it as big as is humanly possible in your setup..... in an ideal world a DSB would be massive, but sadly most of us are seriously cramped for space....

    That being said Surely the requirements for a DSB would be based on
    obviously the size of the system.
    as importantly however, the contents of that system i.e. lots of fish or minimal....
    then what about flow over the DSB, presence or absence of macro algae, ATS, Skimmer? Each of these must impact the DSB requirement ?

    I personally find it difficult to accept the reccommendations as anything but a guideline, with the bottom line of that guideline being - make it as big as is possible!
     
  8. RiaanP

    RiaanP Thread Starter Moderator

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    Nemos
    I think so, but here you have to subtract the area covered by the LR to get to the real effective exposure area of the substrate. If a lot say do not have LR (or to much) on your DSB sand but rather suspend it, then the same conclusion should be valid for the DT.

    Agree Neil, Cheato, skimmer, ATS scrubber all should have an impact. Your last statement is the core of this thread
     
  9. RiaanP

    RiaanP Thread Starter Moderator

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    Sorry Magman, I missed something important. You want something to move it around a bit without predating on the DSB. For example sand sifting Gobies do not work on a DSB as they eat the bacteria you try to establish. I'm not sure what sea lice eat, so I do not know if they will be ok. Please first find out.
     
  10. sihaya

    sihaya

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    Nice thread-- good to see people putting real thought into these things!
     
  11. Hermanus

    Hermanus

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    Riaan , sorry for interupting, I'm bissy seting up n new aquaruime 1,8m x 600 x 600 and the space I have for DSB is 390 X 350 and it will be 11cm deep, fine arrigonite sand is usd, do you think this will do? and then what do you have on your dsb to move it around? What will you advise to put on a new DSB, how long dos it take to mature?
     
  12. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    That is a very small DSB. What size is your sump that you only have so little space?
     
  13. RiaanP

    RiaanP Thread Starter Moderator

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    ok, fine aragonite is good, but save your money and use playdsand. From Regies or garden center. Just wash it like 100 times. It will become white.

    Make it 15 deep. Seems the consensus with playsand is at 15cm to be effective.

    New DSB, just leave it for first month, there should not be enough for scavenger to eat. Later can add a hermit or two.

    It can take at least 2 months to start working. Around 6 to be 100%. Start it by swapping a cupfull sand with fellow reefer. Do not know who else are in Harrismith.

    Enlarge the DSB
    Do you have baffles? If yes, remove it. If you have cheato above DSB, I can not see how any microbubbles can travel all the way from skimmer to return pump. Return chamber, make it as small as possible. Use area above DSB and return as evaporation area. So last divider can be 20cm tall. With Auto Top up, this is not an issue.

    As Neil said
    make it as big as is possible!
     
  14. Hermanus

    Hermanus

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    That is a very small DSB. What size is your sump that you only have so little space?
    The sump has 3 compartments, the first will have the skimmer and LR, this is 390x360x450high then it drops with 100 to the DSB compartment witch is 390x 350 x 350high and then it drop s with 50 to where the retun pump is and that is 390x 200x300high the higth is the water level.
     
  15. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    If I understand your measurements correctly you are using a 3ft as the sump. Any chance of making a bigger one like a 4ft? By keeping the skimmer and return chamber the same size you could double the DSB size.
     
  16. Hermanus

    Hermanus

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    Nothing above DSB, sorry what do you meen with baffles?:)
     
  17. Hermanus

    Hermanus

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    I can make a bigger sump not now but will try to do it asap. The man I bouth the aquaruim from had the DSB like 80x350x 100high in a sepert glass buget he made in the sump and he told me that that what I whant to do is to bigg, But ha-ha someting told me the bigger the better.
     
  18. riyadhessa

    riyadhessa

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    Awesome thread...


    Riaan...whats wrong with aragonite, i say if you can afford it then use it...
     
  19. RiaanP

    RiaanP Thread Starter Moderator

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    Exactly as you said it, if you can afford it then use it...

    For me, with minister of finance and two kids, I would go with play sand and money saved will be spend on better skimmer, lights or whatever equipment or some livestock.
     
  20. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    You sure this is going work ? Sea lice may oxygenate the DSB, there by making it a useless pile of sand.

    Do you know how deep these creatures burrow ?
     
  21. Warr7207

    Warr7207

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    They will die if you don't feed them. These predatory snails are meat-eaters, detritus won't do.
     
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