ID Please

Discussion in 'ID Needed' started by Bonzai, 28 Apr 2011.

  1. Bonzai

    Bonzai

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    Just caught this Lionfish in the Tidal Pool.

    What type of Lionfish is this :

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    Looks like a volitans
     
  4. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    Correct +1:thumbup:
     
  5. richardmatlock

    richardmatlock

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    Wrong and wrong

    Pterois volitans is not found in SA, the correct species is Pterois miles.
     
  6. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    So this is a red devilfish not lionfish .... How many dorsal fins and how many anal fins on this baby?
     
  7. richardmatlock

    richardmatlock

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    You're welcome to call it a pink chikaboo fish if you want, still remains a P. miles.

    Here's a paper examining the differences,

    Pterois Volitans and Pterois miles: Two Valid Species

    but it's easier to remember that unless some monkey has been dumping imported P. volitans in SA, they're all P. miles
     
  8. Bonzai

    Bonzai Thread Starter

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    Hi everyone

    Here is a better pic from the side :

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Jeann1

    Jeann1

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    I tend not to agree with you - Volitan Lionfish are found in the AFRICAN area..

    Volitans Lionfish (Pterois volitans)

    This does look like the Red Devilfish - not to say that it is one.
     
  10. richardmatlock

    richardmatlock

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    "sigh" This is why you shouldn't believe anything you read on the net... Read my previous post's paper, which was published in Copeia, (for the noobs to science Copeia is a quarterly published periodical pertaining to ichthyological and herpetological subjects. It is the official publication of the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists. This magazine received its name in honor of Professor Edward Drinker Cope, a prominent American accomplished within the systematic and faunal aspects of ichthyology and herpetology).

    Bottom line is I think that the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists out-ranks some dude called "Cy" (who can't even code html - note the error at the top) any day of the week.
     
    Last edited: 29 Apr 2011
  11. Jeann1

    Jeann1

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    Yes, very nice paper. Only problem is it was done in the 80's...

    Most of the sites listed below state South Pacific Ocean, African coasts and so on

    Things do change a bit in 30 years.. ok so that site is not the best , here are a few more :

    The Lionfish Info Sheet: Captive Care and Home Husbandry by Frank Marini, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

    Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Volitan Lionfish, Colored

    Volitans Lionfish, Black Lionfish, Red Firefish, Pterois volitans

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterois"]Pterois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:MC_Rotfeuerfisch.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/MC_Rotfeuerfisch.jpg/220px-MC_Rotfeuerfisch.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@COmmons/thumb/3/36/MC_Rotfeuerfisch.jpg/220px-MC_Rotfeuerfisch.jpg[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 26 Nov 2015
  12. richardmatlock

    richardmatlock

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    Once fishbase is back up, do some research,

    Oh and your links say the following, read them before you post

    Habitat: Natural geographic location:
    Volitans Lionfish, Black Lionfish, or Red Firefish are found in the Pacific Ocean: Cocos-Keeling Islands and Western Australia (Ref. 27362) in the eastern Indian Ocean to the Marquesas and Oeno (Pitcairn group), north to southern Japan and southern Korea, south to Lord Howe Island, northern New Zealand, and the Austral Islands. Replaced by the very similar Pterois miles from the Red Sea to Sumatra. They inhabit lagoon and seaward reefs from turbid inshore areas to depths of 50 meters

    and your WIkipoedia article also agrees with me -

    P. volitans is native to the Indo-Pacific oceanic region.[1] This range extends from western Australia and Malaysia east to French Polynesia and the Pitcairn Islands. In addition, the range extends north to southern Japan and southern Korea and south to parts of coastal Australia.[2]

    P. Miles Distribution

    Indian Ocean: Red Sea, South Africa, Indonesia, Also known in eastern Mediterranean. Very similar in appearance to Pterois volitans which does not occur in the Red Sea
     
  13. Jeann1

    Jeann1

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    Yes. P Miles, no P Volitans...

    Posted the links to show you some list different areas to others. We exactly know were all fish species are in the oceans :p
     
  14. SteveZi

    SteveZi

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    and so one may ask: What is the exact differences between P.miles and P.volitans ?
    Well, there is an even bigger question hidden away here: Why would someone have a 2nd name like DRINKER???
    Is it because his mother's father had a drinking problem? or maybe it refers to his own unquenchable thirst while his mother was breastfeeding?
    From what I understand, this is ACTUALLY the reason why the IUBS settled on the system of binomial nomenclature.
    It gives all the embarrassing details.
     
  15. richardmatlock

    richardmatlock

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    The ID key differentiates them in the following way:

    Pterois miles
    63 a Dorsal-fin rays 9½ to 11½ (almost always 10½); anal-fin rays 5½ or 6½ (almost always 6½). - (62)

    Pterois volitans
    63 b Dorsal-fin rays 10½ to 12½ (almost always 11½); anal-fin rays 5½ to 7½ (almost always 7½).

    which is not very precise, so basically it's down to capture location - SA is ALWAYS P. miles....
     
  16. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    Do you not think that possibly, due to other stories from around the world about lionfish becoming an invasive species after being accidentally introduced into local waters, or being transported into foreign waters in the ballasts of ships etc. that it may just possibly be that the Volitans is living and breeding in our local waters? Plenty of guys have bought Volitans and I'm pretty sure once they have grown up and started eating little Johnny's clownfish that Dad went and dumped Mr. Volitans into the Durban harbour, I mean it is possible isn't it? We've all read those links where people are now starting to eat lionfish and encourage the killing of lionfish due to them being so problematic.

    I think it may be a bit unfair to completely deny the fact that there may be Volitans in our local waters, unless the collected fish are examined in a lab and identified by ichthyologists. Here's a little light reading - http://miami-dade.ifas.ufl.edu/documents/LionfishFactSheet.pdf
     
  17. richardmatlock

    richardmatlock

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    Yeh, sure.... There is no reason, should daddy dump the naughty Mr. Volitans, that they would 1.) Breed with another dumped Ms Volitans and 2.)Out-compete the existing P miles army.

    I've personally done proper ID's on dead specimens over the years (though not for a while now) and have always come up with P miles. Also never heard of any P. volitans being ID'd from SA.
     
  18. Bonzai

    Bonzai Thread Starter

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    RichardMatlock...Thanks for all the info, but there is however one tiny...BIG problem with your fact above? Hmmm... :032:

    Saying specimen a's dorsal fin is almost always 10 1/2... puts it in the range of specimen b? Does it not? as well as the anal fin which is "almost always 7 1/2"...this is also within the range of specimen b? Hmmm...Not really narrowed down to say it's fact? Or am I just stupid...knowing that I am studying figures as part of my degree...

    The same is other way around, specimen b's "almost always" figures are in the range of specimen a?

    I agree, no-one can say for sure, if both the Lionfish I caught are not taken to a lab and studied, that it's volitans or miles...

    I have put both the lionfish next to each other in seperate bags, and there are differences that you can see from a mile away.

    This is what's called a Zebra... Just because you here galloping you don't go:
    "It's a Horsey"

    I see you didn't say it's not very precise. Which is exactly the problem with our nature nowadays. Things are drastically changing. Being into Tarantula keeping as a hobby we know about a Tarantula called the OBT, which is one of those species that will be able to outlive our own species in Southern Africa. And put 1 in a 1000 chance of a few mating in our country, it could mean serious consequences.

    The same is with the Volitans. Very hardy fish. Mating with other Volitans, over a perion of 20 - 30 years...can make a change in quite a few papers written by professors and doctors.

    This is why we should never take anything as the final result and set fact, but always be open to possibilities...this is where the adventure of discovery and connection between reality and the fantasy world lie.
     
    Last edited: 4 May 2011
  19. Jeann1

    Jeann1

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    Well put Bonzai.

    I went over to Bonzai's place last night when he arrived back from the coast, there is a very very big difference between those 2 Specimens.

    I will go again with my camera and take some pics under lighting so you can see.

    I am not saying its defenatly this or that species, as the only way would be to take them to a lab, all i'm saying is the possibilities are not limited.

    Currently, Lionfish are classified as a problem fish in America, the population is to big.. its not impossible that some ended up here.. never say never :p
     
  20. 459b

    459b Moderator MASA Contributor

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    what are the differences?
     
  21. jacoc

    jacoc

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    This is a Long-Horned lion fish..."(Pterois radiata)" I think.. family of SCORPAENIDAE....Tropical Indo-Pacific...and what does it realy mater its a lion fish and comes form a interisting family of the lion-fish world...the botom line is it comes from the long-horned family widly spread...can you ensure its wellbeing...?
     
    Last edited: 4 May 2011
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