H. magnifica VS. pumps - Paralyzes Fish

Discussion in 'Anemone's' started by Anemone, 31 Dec 2009.

  1. Anemone

    Anemone

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    Thought I would pass on this poor guy’s misfortune in hopes of bringing awareness and prevention to the community.
    It is my belief that the deaths were not likely caused by consumption of the anemone particles as stated. But rather from the release of nematocysts as was stated by Gary in the link below. Either way, it was deadly and will happen again. Gary also mentions the potency of nematocysts of the H. magnific as being much more powerful compared to the E. quadricolor.

    Taken from here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1766467

    “Well, today was a sad sad day in my world. I got a call from my wife this afternoon saying the fish in my tank were acting funny. I rush home to find that my ritteri anemone had walked onto my closed loop intakes (yes they have screens on them) , and became chopped seafood. The pump is very powerful, its a Reeflo Hammerhead. This in tern spread thousands of tiny food like bits into my tank, which in tern was consumed. For the best we can tell, this caused major paralysis in the fish, which cause them to suffocate. Like I said, sad day.

    List of casualties:

    yellow tang
    hippo tang
    scopas tang
    blue spot kole
    naso tang
    tenniti tang
    orange shoulder tang
    lavender tang
    sailfin tang
    Australian dussimeri tang
    Atlantic blue tang
    chocolate tang
    lime green coris wrasse
    2x melenarus wrasse
    6x green chromis damsels
    sixline wrasse”
     
    Last edited: 1 Jan 2010
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  3. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

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    Thanks for sharing. That is so sad, all those beautiful fish gone...
    Posted via Mobile Device
     
  4. crispin

    crispin

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    that is indeed sad, a huge list of very beautiful fish lost. and made even worse by the fact that it sounds like he had taken a few steps to prevent it. the fact he had a closed loop and had tried to cover the intakes etc.

    but the paralysis of the fish is just the start point, the over load of the biological matter in tht small system will likely lead to a massive increase in ammonia and we know how that kills almost everything:(

    thanks for the heads up, its always valuable to learn from other peoples mistakes if we can
     
  5. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    I believe that you are correct, but that the damage/trauma was made much worse by the fact that the fish ate the pieces, as reported.

    I did some microscope analysis of aiptasia sp. and observed that their nematocysts still "fired" some 10 minutes after the tentacle that I was observing had been cut off from the body of the anemone. I assume that thes anemone's nematocysts would have fired when they came into contact with the palate, throat and stomace of the fish, after being swallowed. I further assume (normally a dangerous thing to do, but it is logical in this case...) that the inside of the mouth, throat and stomach of fish do not have scales to protect them, and that this allowed the nematocysts to puncture deeply, and discharge their venom into areas much closer to vital organs than what would have been the case if the fish had only contacted them exteriorly.

    Hennie

    PS. For those interested, here is a photo I took of some fired nematocysts:

    [​IMG]

    Hennie
     
  6. viper357

    viper357 Admin MASA Contributor

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    Nice info Hennie, thanks.
     
  7. jacquesb

    jacquesb Retired Moderator

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    Anemone - I am not sure that the other MASA members can remember - but I suffered EXACTLY the same fate, middle of last year.

    I too lost many prized fish. My Magnifica anemone, managed to stretch itself over +-25cm, AGAINST about 30000 litres per hour of water flow, to get it's tentacles sucked in by my one 4400 litre per hour SEIO power-head.

    The result too was that there were hundreds of tiny pieces of anemone tentacles floating around inside my tank.

    Unfortunately, seeing that my fish were pigs and ate everything they could find - this resulted in them eating the tiny pieces of magnifica tentacles....

    This resulted in 85% of my fish suffocating in my water.

    I lost an eating copperband butterfly, the most beautiful of blond naso tangs, my most prized yellow belly regal tang (+-22cm long), bristletooth tang, 6-line wrasse, one blue devil damsel, one honey damsel, blennies, etc.....
     
  8. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    FREAKY - I was typing about the same thing now!
     
  9. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    Was just about to mention this now
     
  10. Anemone

    Anemone Thread Starter

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    Hennie,

    That is a remarkable photo. Thank you for sharing!

    What made me believe that it wasn’t caused by consumption is that the only fish that survived were clownfish. I would have thought that if the other fish were eating, they would also. I would have to believe they would not be protected if they ate the tentacles. Are the clownfish too smart for this? Any thoughts?

    Jacquesb,

    Sorry for you losses. I can’t even imagine how painful it must have been to find your tank like that. I don’t remember if I read this thread or not. Do you have a link to it, or do I have to search through over 14,000 posts? :)
     
  11. Reef Maniac

    Reef Maniac MASA Contributor

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    Brenda, this is a very interesting discussion, but I don't think that us aquarists are likely to find the definitive answer - I will, however, discuss this with a zoology professor who specializes in fish parasites, and get her opinion on this (in due course, the varsity is still on holiday...).

    This could be interpreted either way -
    • As you know, clownfish are not inherently "immune" to their host anemones, but they survive because their exteriors are coated in a "slime" layer which prevents the nematocysts from firing when they make contact with them. If the fish only made contact with the nematocysts on their exterior the "exterior attack" theory would thus be true, as the clowns would still be "immune", whilst all the other fish would not be.
    • I have observed clowns "biting" their host anemones quite often (perhaps cleaning away a parasite or detritus...), and I assume (once again...) that their mouth interiors and upper throats (at least) must also be covered in this same protective "slime". If this is true, they would still be protected from the nematocysts even if they swallowed pieces of anemone, whilst all the other fish would not be protected, and "my" theory would still be valid.
    I do concur, though, that any contact the "non immune" fish would have with nematocyst-containing bits of flesh on their outsides would also contribute to the "shock effect", and if enough nematocysts were fired into their skins they would still be paralyzed and die, just as what would happen if the anemone had caught the fish. I just think that the effect of the eaten pieces of nematocyst-bearing flesh would play a much larger (more severe) role in the whole process, as the toxins released would be much closer to vital organs - just the same as when one is stung by bees, a few stings on the leg or arm in not life threatening to someone who is not allergic to bee stings, but a few stings to the face or throat can have more serious consequences.

    Hennie
     
  12. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    Hey there Brenda long time no bother you with questions - here's the post number to Jacquesb start of his problems #1074 in his "
    JacquesB's 2 meter reef tank"

    thread dated 29/06/2009 - page 54 - hope this helps http://www.marineaquariumsa.com/showpost.php?p=246958&postcount=1074
     
  13. softiegirl

    softiegirl Zoa queen!

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    +1 crispin!! unless that tank was 1000 gallons, the tang overload was HUGE!!!
     
  14. Anemone

    Anemone Thread Starter

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  15. chikaboo

    chikaboo

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    And to you - maybe after leaving my tank to settle last year without interfering too much I'll venture out to the nennie world by mid this year (then the bothersome questions might start) Was thinking about these problems and was thinking of making a kind of "burglar(nennie) guard" with egg crate to try and eliminate this - think it'll work? It would be like a cage enclosing the wavemakers and egg crate still has big enough spaces so as not to restrict the flow....
     
  16. Anemone

    Anemone Thread Starter

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    Glad to hear you are waiting. Your idea may work. It depends on how powerful the pump is, and how far you have the egg crate away from the pump. You want to make sure that the incoming force isn't enough to pull any parts of the anemone in.
     
  17. ashdnet

    ashdnet

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    Hi Folks, same thing happened to me. Nennie's tenticales on the one side of it's body are 'fried', remaining still look ok. Do I keep it in hope of it making a full recovery, or do I remove it now before it dies off and further polutes the tank? 30% WC & Carbon filter added since the incident as I had a major spike in Ammonia - Help please...
     
  18. Anemone

    Anemone Thread Starter

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    We need more information. What size tank do you have? What lighting? What are your water parameters? How long has the tank been running? How long has the anemone been in the tank? What species is it? What have you been feeding the anemone? What other tank mates do you have?

    Please get us a pic if you can.
     
  19. ashdnet

    ashdnet

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    Size of tank - 250L (66GAL)
    Lighting - 4 x T5's (2 Blue 2 White)
    Water parameters? High Ammonia but corected with WC and Carbon change, SG now 1024.
    How long has the tank been running? Almost 2 years
    How long has the anemone been in the tank? Around 2 months
    What species is it? Quadra colour bubble tip
    What have you been feeding the anemone? Phytoplankton, Light. Open to other suggestions...
    What other tank mates do you have? That survided - 2 x African Clown, 1 Yellow tale Damsel, 1 x Percula clown, 1 x cleaner shrimp, Tube Anemone, Coral (Candy Cain)

    Thanks
     
  20. Tobes

    Tobes Retired Moderator

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    What do you mean by "fried"? Did it get stuck in a pump?
     
  21. ashdnet

    ashdnet

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    Yep. But, looking much better this morning. I just panicked after the entire episode when returning home yesterday,I was not able to contact my LFS until this morning, they said he should make a full recovery.
     
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