Fluidize bed

timmyus

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Does this serve the purpose of the Deepsand bed? Or what is it for
 

Kanga

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Does this serve the purpose of the Deepsand bed? Or what is it for

I dont believe it will as water flowing through it the sand will get oxygenated, hence the whole filter will be aerobic. Thus no anearobic area like a DSB meaning it wont be as effective as a DSB in converting Nitrate into nitrogen gas

JMO
 

timmyus

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oh ok, but is there any benefit using this thing? what purpose does it then serve?
 

Kanga

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oh ok, but is there any benefit using this thing? what purpose does it then serve?

Of course there is, it will break down waste into ammonia(lethal)>>>nitrite(lethal)>>>Nitrate(non lethal to fish in low concentration)

So a DSB would be a better, cheaper option
 

timmyus

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Oh ok cool thanks Kanga, Sorry if the question sounded stupid but I was wondering what the point was of these devices are if it is cheaper and better to use the DSB method. I guess if you not able to have DBS due to lack of sump or something this device comes in handy.
 

Kanga

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Oh ok cool thanks Kanga, Sorry if the question sounded stupid but I was wondering what the point was of these devices are if it is cheaper and better to use the DSB method. I guess if you not able to have DBS due to lack of sump or something this device comes in handy.
I would imagine it would

But bear in mind, an equipment manufacturers worst nightmare is a DSB, I mean you could plump a normal 25L plastic drum to make a DSB. No profit for Mr. Manufacturer.

However in a fish only I think it will have a use
 

calvin

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they are highly effective as the surface area for bacteria is greatly expanded when media is fluidised! very good filteration but wontdo thejob of a dsb
 

LikesFish

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I used to run one in my QT tank. Never had any detectable ammonia or nitrites.
 

koi500

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I would imagine it would

But bear in mind, an equipment manufacturers worst nightmare is a DSB, I mean you could plump a normal 25L plastic drum to make a DSB. No profit for Mr. Manufacturer.

However in a fish only I think it will have a use
hi kanga, help me out here please, my internet research (koi filtration) raves about the efficiency of fluidized sand bed filters vs mechanical sand filters al la swimming pool set ups. having made my own for my koi pond years ago, and having had such good results plus no hassles at all from a cleaning/sand replacement etc etc i decided to try one on my fish only marine tank - so far (4 years later) seems to do a good job. note i have no sand in my tank at all nor in the sump so had no other choice as regards bio filtration - my protein skimmer make half a cup of "coke" every few days and my fish seem to be healthy according to their growth rate and longlevity. but the point is how does the fluidized vs DSB stand up ? cheers dave nyland
 

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IMO the fludised sand filter is much, much more efficient at nitrification than the DSB can ever be. However, the fluidised sand filter does not perform any denitrification since there are no anaerobic zones, so it is like comparing apples and oranges. A properly set up DSB does perform denitrification very well, albeit slowly.
 

Kanga

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hi kanga, help me out here please, my internet research (koi filtration) raves about the efficiency of fluidized sand bed filters vs mechanical sand filters al la swimming pool set ups. having made my own for my koi pond years ago, and having had such good results plus no hassles at all from a cleaning/sand replacement etc etc i decided to try one on my fish only marine tank - so far (4 years later) seems to do a good job. note i have no sand in my tank at all nor in the sump so had no other choice as regards bio filtration - my protein skimmer make half a cup of "coke" every few days and my fish seem to be healthy according to their growth rate and longlevity. but the point is how does the fluidized vs DSB stand up ? cheers dave nyland

Like I said I do think they have a place in a Fish Only system and even a reef with a DSB, as fish re more tolerant to nitrates which you will be exporting from your system in any event with regular waterchanges.

IMO the fludised sand filter is much, much more efficient at nitrification than the DSB can ever be. However, the fluidised sand filter does not perform any denitrification since there are no anaerobic zones, so it is like comparing apples and oranges. A properly set up DSB does perform denitrification very well, albeit slowly.
Indeed.
 

koi500

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I would imagine it would

But bear in mind, an equipment manufacturers worst nightmare is a DSB, I mean you could plump a normal 25L plastic drum to make a DSB. No profit for Mr. Manufacturer.

However in a fish only I think it will have a use
Hi Kanga, can you help me please? saw your reply fluidized vs DSB i am sure i could use my sump to accommodate a DSB. but please help me get my thinking right here, all my previous experiences with deep sand has been to find the lower strata turns black and smelly very quickly hence my aversion to any sand in a marine tank (that is not fluidized that is) IMHO sand with no water flow will result in non aerobic activity hence the need to prevent "dead " spots in the water flow? i know that under certain circumstances unnaerobic filtration could be useful in a tank but my knowledge is not sufficient to figure this out? please could you explain the details to me and show me the basics of a DIY DSB filter - IMHO we cant have too much filtration so i am very keen to use DSB in tandem with my fluidiser - cheers dave
 

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Hi Kanga, can you help me please? saw your reply fluidized vs DSB i am sure i could use my sump to accommodate a DSB. but please help me get my thinking right here, all my previous experiences with deep sand has been to find the lower strata turns black and smelly very quickly hence my aversion to any sand in a marine tank (that is not fluidized that is) IMHO sand with no water flow will result in non aerobic activity hence the need to prevent "dead " spots in the water flow? i know that under certain circumstances unnaerobic filtration could be useful in a tank but my knowledge is not sufficient to figure this out? please could you explain the details to me and show me the basics of a DIY DSB filter - IMHO we cant have too much filtration so i am very keen to use DSB in tandem with my fluidiser - cheers dave
Hi Dave -

The DSB is a long-term (and more natural) nutrient export system. The micro-life within the DSB itself ensures water penetration into the DSB, right down to the an-aerobic area. One thing that makes a DSB more efficient, is that there should always be some reasonably decent flow OVER the DSB (not through it).....

Having ANY sort of DSB in a sump or even in a bucket of sorts, will be extremely beneficial to anyone using it, as it also breaks up nitrates as well....

Would it be possible at all to post a picture / photo of your sump for us? This will enable us to assist with adding/designing your DSB for you. Perhaps you could start a new thread requesting assistance in adding a DSB to your sump?

Many thanks, Dave.
 

Kanga

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The anaerobic black spot are fine as long as they are left undisturbed, this is here where the anaerobic denitrifying bacteria lives that converts nitrate into nitogen gas.
 

koi500

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Hi Dave -

The DSB is a long-term (and more natural) nutrient export system. The micro-life within the DSB itself ensures water penetration into the DSB, right down to the an-aerobic area. One thing that makes a DSB more efficient, is that there should always be some reasonably decent flow OVER the DSB (not through it).....

Having ANY sort of DSB in a sump or even in a bucket of sorts, will be extremely beneficial to anyone using it, as it also breaks up nitrates as well....

Would it be possible at all to post a picture / photo of your sump for us? This will enable us to assist with adding/designing your DSB for you. Perhaps you could start a new thread requesting assistance in adding a DSB to your sump?

Many thanks, Dave.
hi jacquesb, gonna try for photos asap but my sump dimensions are as follows length 1.2m width 1.0m water level 50cm (when tank running) gravity flow at 3200l/h entering the sump just above water level on LHS and directed straight down towards the bottom of the sump - return pump/protein skimmer/power pump on bottom RHS with a baffle plate to reduce flow from return pipes to pump - plenty of space for a DIY DLSB - sump water flow relatively gentle but plenty of volume as diff in level sump to tank stands at 15cm over area of tank 1.4m x1.0m - am making sense?
 

koi500

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I dont believe it will as water flowing through it the sand will get oxygenated, hence the whole filter will be aerobic. Thus no anearobic area like a DSB meaning it wont be as effective as a DSB in converting Nitrate into nitrogen gas

JMO
hi guys, could i use the same sand from my fluidiser in my proposed DIY DLSB filter?
the sand is graded to a uniform grit size and is washed and "demagnetised" during the washing process. its mined not crushed . the only prob ive had is that over time some of the grit is "ground " smaller and being then lighter gets washed out the top of the fluidising unit - this should not occur in a DLSB as the water movement should be much gentler? oh and as regards bacteria could i "seed" my DLSB with sand from my fluidiser? what is the thinking on this please ?
 

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Yes - Koi - you should be able to use the sand from the FBF - BUT, remember, your DSB should be AT LEAST 12cm deep for it to be effective....
And, yes - your sump should be ok - BUT well just have to see HOW exactly we will fit in the DSB - this SHOULD be after the skimmer though....
 

koi500

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Yes - Koi - you should be able to use the sand from the FBF - BUT, remember, your DSB should be AT LEAST 12cm deep for it to be effective....
And, yes - your sump should be ok - BUT well just have to see HOW exactly we will fit in the DSB - this SHOULD be after the skimmer though....
hi jacquesb, perhaps my explanation is a bit blurry, my protein skimmer stands upright in the sump and on the RHS away from where i plan to put the DLSB tray. now if i have the room/depth to use say 18cm of sand should i go for it? oh ive just tested my water (mini lab kit and find zero ammonia/zero nitrite and about 5.0 ppm nitrate) would you expect this in my tank given the continual use of mains water to top up? and if i go the DLSB route can i expect a drop in nitates even with the mains water?
 

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Hi Dave - I am sorry that I am only replying on this now. BUT, your new DSB will work perfectly well in this situation. In a few weeks time you should see a big difference in water clarity, with the amount of "micro critter life" will be really apparent, and your water parameters will be as close to perfect as they can be! Yes - even with mains water your nitrates will drop. BUT, it is not the nitrates that's the big issue with municipal water, it's the phosphates.....
 

koi500

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Hi Dave - I am sorry that I am only replying on this now. BUT, your new DSB will work perfectly well in this situation. In a few weeks time you should see a big difference in water clarity, with the amount of "micro critter life" will be really apparent, and your water parameters will be as close to perfect as they can be! Yes - even with mains water your nitrates will drop. BUT, it is not the nitrates that's the big issue with municipal water, it's the phosphates.....
hi jacquesb, thanks for your interest but can you help me here? ive done tests for phosphate and cannot get a reading on my water - either im doing the test incorrectly (quite possible) or theres no phosphate in my water? unlikely! as you say theres plenty of phosphate in my mains water and i pump in about 15l every 24 hrs? so where do you think it is? could i take a sample to someone and have it tested for phosphates? would someone like Northern aquatics be able to do so for me? and could i be confident in their results? cheers dave
 

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