Urgent help needed Fish Dying for no reason

Luckyfish you highlight an interesting issue, with regards to feeding any frozen foods. These foods are not preserved like dry/flake foods ,the only thing protecting them from becoming bacterial and fungal explosions is the fact that they are frozen.

I always rinse all frozen foods in a fine plastic sieve in order to get rid of the juice, this helps but still won't be much use if the cold supply chain between the frozen foods has been broken, I suspect many fish die because we feed them frozen food that has been frozen and thawed over and over. We have no way of knowing if the cold supply chain has been broken but your best bet is to smell the food, it should smell but not of rotting stench (each food smells different krill Vs bloodworms for eg. So familiarize yourself with scent of the fresh foodstuff after you have rinsed it.
 
Although I do agree that the frozen foods do contain some bad stuff to preserve them and none of this would be beneficial to any tank. I highly doubt that this is the cause of Lloyds strange deaths and other symptoms. I think that a tank of nearly 500Ltr would easily dilute these nasties down to unmeasurable levels or rather levels that wouldn’t do any harm to fish. If this was the case then I think we would have had an international outcry against frozen foods and we would be hearing of these issues all the time. I also have read similar stories with regards to these bad ingredients in brine shrimp but I have never heard of anyone within my reefkeeping contacts who has labeled this as a cause for any issues. Having said that I think its a great idea what Marcel recommends to dissolve the food first in RO then feed it to the tank

I still think that the cause would more likely be some sort of cleaning agent that some how found its way into the tank, but we are still trying to figure the issue out as its very scary to have an issue with your tank but no explanation.

Trev
 
I have never new that, but i have been keeping fish for over twenty years and i have never had problem.But the food i use is gamma ray irradiated pathogen free is your frozen food not the same.shrimpman.(just asking).
 
I dont think the food here is the issue,but if in doubt purchase a reputable branded food that sterilizes its juice,that way you dont take any chances,I would be more worried about P04 levels from food.
More NB...Check water parametres,I noticed no Nitrite test was done...??
Next check for parasitic or bacterial infection
Then other stress factors like bullying etc.....
Lastly do a large water change in case you got something toxic in your water that you cant see
 
It may or may not be the food but few people are aware of this issue with frozen foods and if they are thawed and then refrozen numerous times before they are fed-

Trev many frozen foods are not gamma irradiated to kill pathogens before they are frozen those that are, state it on the packaging but even this wont stop them from degrading fast into a bacterial soup if they are not kept frozen from source to hobbyist - They usually dont have any preservatives their "freshness" is only ensured by constantly being kept frozen

- Luckyfish has highlighted an often overlooked issue which many people dont consider if fish health problems arise.

If i fed you raw sushi that was frozen and thawed and then frozen and thawed again and finally consumed i think there is an excellent chance you would get a diahorrea or sick( food poisoning) , that said fish arent like us and can eat many things that would outright kill us, but pathogenic bacteria/fungi can kill both us and fish!
 
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think that a tank of nearly 500Ltr would easily dilute these nasties down to unmeasurable levels or rather levels that wouldn’t do any harm to fish.
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the amount of bacteria that get introduced per block is probably extremly small, but bacteria reproduce rapidly given the correct conditions. Even the addition of a small amount of bacteria could (under certain circumstances) lead to future problems. Alot of the disease cuasing bacteria, including most benign Vibrio spp. are opportunistic pathogens, meaning they can live for ages and even be beneficial to your tank, but then one day, without warning and for a multitude of reasons, decide to cause havoc. As Luckey fish was ponting out, its the accumulation of this that causes the problem. The existing fish build up resistence to slow build up of nasties, which new fish cannot handle.

Another point to note of freezing and thawing. Some bacteria are pathogenic because of what the toxins they produce. While in a thawed state they will grow and release the toxin and when frozen, they will "hibernate"untyol being thawed again. This process will cause an accumulation of toxins in the food whith each freeze/thaw cycle. THerefore its also a good idea to only thaw as much food as you will feed at a time.
 
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Achilles said:
- Luckyfish has highlighted an often overlooked issue which many people dont consider if fish health problems arise.

If i fed you raw sushi that was frozen and thawed and then frozen and thawed again and finally consumed i think there is an excellent chance you would get a diahorrea or sick( food poisoning) , that said fish arent like us and can eat many things that would outright kill us, but pathogenic bacteria/fungi can kill both us and fish!
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That is exactly my point. I think to many times we blame the LFS or searching for other causes, for dying fish. The broken chain, frozen, thawed and frozen again might make fish sick. But for sure, brine shrimp juice is probably the worst one can buy. A hidden timebomb. There is no scientific evidence that this is cause of his dying fish, but I went through the same situation for a couple of months until I finally found out what I was doing wrong.

@Trevor- You really underestimate the impact of brine juice. This happen to me with frozen food from RUTO, a dutch supplier. This happen in my system with around 900-950 litre. So 500 litre is roughly half and should take half the time to get the same effect I had.
Now from the breeders point of view. The mainreason to decapsule brineshrimp eggs is not the faster hatching time or to have no floating eggshells. It is to desinfect the brineshrimp eggs, because the eggshells carry plenty of diseases. Ask Brenda (Anemone), she can tell stories about brineshrimp egg diseases. Rotifer and brine shrimp cultures are highly polluted and must be rinsed before feeding to the offspring.
Another important aspect is that brines not occure in any ocean. Frozen brines should be used to wean picky eaters amd thats it. Even mysis is a freshwater species and their juice is also not safe. Funny enough, mysis reaches almost the required fatty acid profile for marines.

Please guys, DON'T underestimate the danger that comes with frozen brines.
I'm in the hobby for 15 years and have experienced this the expensive way.
Due to my breeding project, I know probably more about nutrition, diseases and the no-go's, then most hobbyists.
I do not accept anybody's comment that will make brine shrimp juice harmless!
 
Thanks for the info Marcel. I have always thawed and then rinsed the frozen food with R/O water, even my homemade fish food, but I have a question about the Formula Two Rapid delivery formulation food which is bound with gel. I have been
putting it in still frozen and it breaks apart in the tank and the fish nibble on it. Is this correct?
 
colbar said:
Thanks for the info Marcel. I have always thawed and then rinsed the frozen food with R/O water, even my homemade fish food, but I have a question about the Formula Two Rapid delivery formulation food which is bound with gel. I have been
putting it in still frozen and it breaks apart in the tank and the fish nibble on it. Is this correct?
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I don't see anything wrong with that. Mysis is also not such a huge problem, but brines are. The juice from frozen brines is really dangerous as it comes with bacteria and diseases, which doesn't occure in our oceans. Frozen brines should be taken of the market as it causes to many deaths.
 
LuckyFish said:
So how do I know about this brine shrimp juice story?
15 years ago, I was just as lazy as the majority who feeds frozen brines. Every new arrival died within the first 24 hours. After I added a new huge mandarin to my system, I could clearly see there is something wrong in my tank. The mandarin was acting like he touched high voltage. I use to blame my supplier, but after the mandarin died within minutes, I had a very long chat with my supplier. Honest as I am, I told him that I was blaming him for selling sick fish. He apologised to have forgotten to tell me to rinse the brines before feeding.

I really would like to know if anybody here knows about the problem with brine juice as I believe the majority doesn't. I've read so many threads about dying fish, but nobody mentioned the brine shrimp juice as a cause.
How can we make sure that everybody gets to know about it? I think this would save many fish lifes and good reputations our LFS.
It is always easy to blame somebody for the mistakes we make as we don't know any better. I'm sure not every LFS knows about the brine juice, so speak to your LFS about it.
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that is why i like the ocean nutrition frozen food most of them are gel
 
Luckyfish, thanks for this great advice, one would never have thought this could be such a huge issue. Your advice is as always spot on!!
 
LuckyFish said:
The juice from frozen brines is really dangerous as it comes with bacteria and diseases, which doesn't occure in our oceans. Frozen brines should be taken of the market as it causes to many deaths.
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What about the frozen brine shrimp that are Gamma Irradiated, these claim to be pretty much sterile?
 
viper357 said:
What about the frozen brine shrimp that are Gamma Irradiated, these claim to be pretty much sterile?
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Dean, since we ran trace element supplements from a well known manufaturer through the lab, I don't believe anything what's written on products. Especially when it's not for human consuption. Brines shouldn't be fed to marines, because brines are not occuring in the oceans and the nutritional value is not good. I would rinse any frozen food for peace of mind.
 
WOW, thanks to @belindamotion, I would like to revive this thread, I use a lot of brine as my CB loves it, especially the super brine that has been gut loaded, going to def. rinse them more carefully. Wasn't aware the problems brineshrimp can bring. Thanks @belindamotion and @LuckyFish.
 
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Hi, i also learn a lot from this thread, things i dint'n know. I use brine and did never rinse it, read in this thread now i understand what and why my fish sometime ( nothing wrong with them ) just suddenly die without reason. Mandarin just spiral trough the water and die. Happen with a scooter gobie also.
Thank you Luckyfish for shearing this information with all. I agree with Carlosdeandrade to revived this thread.
 
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