FAQs on Sandbed Dimensions

Btw, these are not "hard and fast" rules anyway... I got the "foot print of a 40g breeder" from Dr. Shimek (and Dr. Toonen). But, honestly, I'm not sure where they got that either... but I just figure, if anyone is qualified to give an educated guess... they would be. And, in my own personal experience... anything less just doesn't seem to really "work."

Word to the wise... ALL of this is "educated" speculation. Again, there are no actual "studies" on these kinds of things. We are ALL just (more or less) *guessing* here... it might be smart, educated guessing... but guessing all the same. The only thing I know for sure though, is that no one ever has a problem because their sand bed is too big... so what's the "true" minimum? Who the heck knows for sure? All I have is my own experience and the handed down wisdom of those who have studied these things for a living...
 
would be nice to do a test, would need a closed system so one could measure the bacteria given different sizes etc....

i wonder if the growth is linear or exponential
 
isnt also true that if your dsb is too deep the bottom parts build up sulphur?

Sulfur as a by-product of bacteria? I imagine that's possible. But again, it's so damn frustrating how little we actually "know" about DSBs in captive systems...
 
I would say if we can get a min figure of so many square cm for so many litres of water it will help. A ratio given is better than a min size DSB as, like you said, some tanks are taller than others. My tank is only 240litres, but my whole system is 550litres as I have a sump and a refugium each with its own DSB.
 
ok, question not answered with all the Confusius around.
For a 90L display, is a DSB with surface area of jst under 1200 square cm OK?
 
Well... I do believe, based on the writings of Dr. Shimek and Toonen... that there is an absolute "minimum size"... because, let's get real...1) it needs to be at least 10cm deep and 2) 10cm of sand in a 10g tank just isn't going to have the diversity needed to make for a healthy and functional DSB.

The real "minimum" must be based on the 10cm depth figure... there actually is sufficient scientific research to support the fact that most all denitrification occurs within the top 10cm or so. So we know that almost "for sure." The other dimensions we might build off of that..."fact."
 
ok, question not answered with all the Confusius around.
For a 90L display, is a DSB with surface area of jst under 1200 square cm OK?

Personally... I'd say go ahead and give it a shot. The really, really important thing (no matter the size of the sand bed) is that you get a lot of life/diversity in that sand bed. With such a small size, you might have to "re-seed" the sand every 6 months to a year... but if you can get enough worms, micro-crustaceans, bacteria, etc. in that sand bed (and maintain that life/diversity)... then it should work ok... at least do something.
 
LOL... no wonder Steven Pro demanded to see proof that I have a MA in Mathematics... I swear I do!! Only goes to show you how little practical knowledge a liberal arts education will give you... lol j/k!
LOL very true! :)

cant we skip the maths and just take on board the principles please :)
 
hmmm sounds like another experient i would like to try further...

i know there are equations and algorithms for determing bacteria grown and mass...
but the problem is getting the bacteria in a lab environment...this would need to be a closed system etc, would be fun
 
Hmmm... an interesting idea. The problem with doing any kind of "real" study with captive systems is that there are just sooooo many darn variables!
 
i know, airbourne bacteria, bacteria from seeding food etc

also their would have to be no livestock, just a piece of food to start the cycle, and that mass etc must be accounted for, and it should be irradiated

man would take weeks to prepare
 
It's almost just "impossible" for any one person to do any kind of formal study. If you're really interested in this kind of thing... if I were you, instead of trying to set up a controlled experiment... I'd advice you do a thorough "survey" type study. You could get samples from sand beds from many, many different types of systems. If you got enough samples from enough different people/systems, you might be able to use statistical models to get some kinda of "workable" data... but it would be a big project for sure... and no guarantees that you'd get anything close to "science" in the end. But it might be interesting all the same...
 
and the worst is a nice dsb with varied bacteria

the easiest i think would be to start 2 sterile dsb's, irradiate sand, tanks etc then monitor the bio-mass at the start and plot a timeline of the 2 where one is left to be and the other has a seed in the form off ammonia
 
::sigh:: Listen to me dude... I do admire your dream, ambition... but you're in the clouds here my friend. The fact is, you just can't do a controlled study of these things. If you really want to get into this... I'm telling you... do a "survey." It's the only way to go with these things. To give you some idea of what I'm talking about... please read this (a critique of Borneman's tragic attempt to do a "controlled" study of salt mixes):
www.asira.org - Critique of the Borneman Lowe Salt Study

If the educated, experienced Mr. Borneman couldn't even do a "controlled" study of salt mixes... imagine trying to do a study of DSB dimensions!! It's pretty much impossible in my opinion...

Seriously though... I'd be very interested in seeing the "results" of a well conducted survey of as many DSBs as you can get samples from (ideally, dozens... if not more). It would be very, very interesting to see/study the biodiversity (or lack there of) in many different systems.
 
i know i am in the clouds but always good to am high :)

sounds good, will get samples from dsb's noting size, volume etc and see what i can fathom... arrgghh new my maths major would have a use one day
 
Oh dude.... get as much info from your samples as you can!! including... use of macro algae, lighting, skimming, waterflow, grain size... get as much info as possible! Seriously... even stuff you might not think relevant... get as much info as you possibly can!
 
will do, i will take photographs etc as well...
i will start planning this next week and hopefully start in may
 
Sara, would u look at the plan once i have done it and make some suggestions/corrections...

i would love to get this as accurate as can be, and have fun along the way
 
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