Ethics of reefing, think about what you are doing!

Discussion in 'General Discussions and Advice' started by crispin, 2 Sep 2012.

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  1. crispin

    crispin

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    When I started out in marines it was guys on masa that realy took their time to help me out. I was bullish and headstrong and wanted to put in all the pretty things that any LFS said would go. But the likes of kanga, JaquesB, mike allan etc etc etc realy took their time and guided my enthusiasm and taught me that there’s a responsibility and ethics to reef keeping. We are keeping living organisms, confined to tiny (by comparison to what they are used to) aquariums and we thus have a duty to do so in a manner that is to that organisms best interest. I know I have a reputation of having ‘higher ethic’----(as described by other masa members previously) and thus constrain myself to what I keep, how I keep it and how much effort I put into my reefing. It’s a little ‘old school’ and conservative but I base my decisions on conventional thinking, my own experience and listening to reefers around the world as to what they do, and why they do it.

    I urge people who keep and want to keep marines to think about what you want to do, and why. Plan how to achieve that and LISTEN to convention. The recommendations people give are not to stop you from enjoying marines, its to stop the abuse of animals that have no voice. Its to give the organisms the best possible life under your control. When people have worked out a minimum tank size for a certain fish, its not because the want to stop a specific person from keeping that fish, its because we have learnt what works and what doesn’t, and what is acceptable size to give the fish (or invert) a realistic chance of survival. Those things like not cycling a tank with living fish, no nennies before a tank is stable (normally takes a good 6-9months) and no tangs in nano’s ARE NOT TO STOP PEOPLES ENJOYMENT, but to help that organism thrive for our personal pleasure.

    LFS’s get a bad reputation because people say they just sell things which are not suited for the tank they are being brought for and just want to make money out of reefers. But in recent years the number of specialised marine stores who train their staff, and have members with better knowledge than most hobbyists has increased drastically. The likes of Idol Marine, Dory Pets, Pet stop etc, realy have put a lot into reefing and give applicable advice. I personally think that there are far worse accounts of bad advice where by people have tangs in nano’s. bleached nennies, flame scallops etc etc and show others that they think its fine to do this. Fine to have two or three tangs in 100l tanks. Fine to catch fish from the ocean, not know what it is and simply flush it when it eats other things. Show people that taking SPS and LR from SA shores for theior tanks is fine, not giving a toss about conservation or species protection. I think people abusing LS in their tanks and showing off that they can are FAR FAR FAR worse than a poor LFS.

    There are a number of people on masa that don’t give a toss about minimum tank size, nennies in young undeveloped poorly kept tanks. I urge you to start thinking about the abuse of living organisms you are committing and stop it!

    Ive stopped speaking my mind for the sake of harmony on the forums, but frankly people whom abuse LS don’t deserve the protection of a big happy family and I am tired of being nice while they don’t give a toss about the things they keep.
     
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  3. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    Don't stop.
    If a reefer does not like the advice he gets, even if 10 to 1 advice against a certain practice. Rather let him get out of this big happy family.

    People will make mistakes. Your errors could be pointed out, and advice given against your actions or methods. If you keep on being offended by "advice", ask yourself first this question. Why would somebody with no financial gain, take 5 minutes out of their life, to respond to your method or action? What is in it for them. Nothing. So before you jump on your horse, sit back, relax, re-read the comment and try to understand why something is said.

    Also, experience in marines do come with a heavy price tag or loss of life. Either money spend on wrong equipment or livestock that struggles due to us not being able to provide the correct environment for them. So why waste your own money and tears. Rather learn out of other reefers experience.
     
  4. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    I agree with all your comments @crispin, but surely it is more complicated and the issues at hand are not so much on the surface.
    I think all parties involved are to blame form the person/people that collect the LS to the those that buy the fish or inverttebrates.
    Say for example, you walk into a LFS and see this small sailfin, only about 4cm in length, you think to yourself, wow, I have enough space for him! Would a reefer with a system big enough to house an adult sailfin purchase the 4cm juvenile?
    Who is to blame, The guy on the bread line catching the fish to feed his family, the owner of the LFS or the reefer? Why is their always stock available, just like our systems we don't live in perfect worlds, fish are always dying, even in good tanks, so the cycle of catching and dying never ends, SAD but TRUE.

    We should rather push for the ban in catching wild caught specimens and rather keep captive bred ones.

    I think that turning a blind eye/washing your hands to giving advice because you come across as "prickly," is a sad day for someone that has had years of experience and knowledge @crispin.

    I for one welcome your comments, even if they make me feel uncomfortable.
    I am the first to admit that I have bought fish that would outgrow my tank, but never to flush them when they become to big, but to grow them and then sell them to someone with a bigger tank or swop them back at the LFS I bought it from, I have done this before with Idol marine.

    I live in a glass house, and never throw stones, rather shine my neighbours windows.

    PS: I bought a bleached (what I thought) Macrodactylis doreensis from a lfs yesterday, try give the guy some chance of survival, does that make me a irresponsible reefer?

    Your brother in reefing,
    Carlos:)
     
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  5. mandarinman

    mandarinman

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    If you are that serious sbout the wellbeing of the sealife you or others have in a tank you would have left them in the sea. However I think you are just a little moody todsy. Hopefully tomorrow will be better for you.
     
  6. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    @mandarinman, who? I hope that wasn't meant for me? I am hardly ever moody!:biggrin:
     
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  7. crispin

    crispin Thread Starter

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    no actually fella im not just in a mood. I believe this stuff. I treat the LS i keep as best i possibly can and I dont go about putting tnings into tanks that arent suited for them. I wont feel better about this tomorrow, i feel quite calm and relaxed today. Id just wish people would think before they do!
     
  8. ScottK

    ScottK

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    I wish that you wouldn't keep your thoughts to yourself. I've been hanging round here for about a year and a bit now and your opinions and posts are always ones I will take note of and respect, you have a lot of knowledge and I am sure there are many people like me that appreciate you sharing it.

    The advice that is given out may not always be what people want to hear, that does not mean it is wrong.
     
  9. vatso

    vatso

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    I agree that we are caring for pets at the end of the day & they have a right to a good happy healthy life!

    I was at a LFS today and heard the staff giving a client advise that phosphates are not important to test and that ozone will clear up the algae.

    the guy wants to do the right thing it's hard when that type of advice is being given.

    I agree I don't feel sorry for people who just won't listen to reason and the poor fish and corals suffer. in saying that we need to push boundaries and debate ideas. but don't let your stuff suffer
     
  10. brentnorm

    brentnorm

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    I do hope you said something.
     
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  11. RiaanP

    RiaanP Moderator

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    How many species are pelagic? How many species of fish can and have been successfully raised? Well, you are not "allowed" in South Africa. But that is another topic.

    The topic at hand is, will you keep a German Sheppard puppy, Dalmation puppy, Doberman puppy and Rottweiler puppy in a townhouse complex? With garden big enough to stand still with the hosepipe on the patio while watering all corners? They all can play happily now. But what will happen to their behaviour in 6 months?

    I had a 5 foot 350L system, with Blond Naso and Chocolate tang. Another 4 foot 220L with Scopa tang and Navarchus angel. And in the 90L quarantine a Sailfin and Blue regal. Now that they are all in one big tank 750L, their behaviour is totally different. Navarchus always hide away when you too close to the tank. Same with Scopa and Chocolate. could never see the File fish either. Now, they all swim in and out, in the open with people in front of the tank. Their behaviour towards each other is totally not what I expected. Was ready for a war zone. But they are all in one big happy family. This is open invitation to all who seen the old 350 plus 220L setup, come around and stand in front of the big 750L. And see for yourself the difference in behaviour. And for the first time, I can really enjoy the file fish.
     
  12. Helga

    Helga

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    I salute you @crispin for standing up and voicing these concerns! Its truths that is long overdue and I for one wish had the guts to say!
    Keep on voicing your opinion.... there's definitely more Newbies like me that appreciate your honest opinion
    :thumbup:
     
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  13. mariusmeyer

    mariusmeyer

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    Carlos, just a few points, and please I am not aiming or picking it at you. Firstly you should not buy stock before doing research so if you see that sailfin at 4cm and you dont know how fast it grows or its adult size then the person should not buy it. Many people with big tanks will buy small fish and actually prefer it that way. Only the guys with huge, couple thousand litre tanks will buy big fish.

    And then on people who buy bleached corals in the hope to save them.....And yes I did see you biught one but you should know as well, by buying that coral the shop achieved its goal of making money from it. So nothing stops them from ordering them again. You create a market for something so they will try and sell it. Many shops do however get coral that was not on the order list but its difficult to know if it was or not. Bottom line is, dont go out and create a market for the items that are already half dead.

    Many people will also say that a few years ago hard coral was very difficult to keep and now its easy within many peoples reach and therefor the current so-called difficult stuff will also become easier. The question though is how many are you willing to kill before it becomes easy. If you do this you either have too much money to waste/gamble with or just dont give a crap about the stuff you are keeping.

    Some people in hobby keep marines as their friend/family thinks its cool/expensive/difficult, others keep it for the passion.
     
    Last edited: 2 Sep 2012
  14. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    I agree @RiaanP, I just don't want us reefers to argue with each other, "skinner" behind each other's backs and stop giving advice and listening to advice. My statement was purely hypothetical as I know this will never happen. I also feel sorry for the Japanese living in such cramped conditions in Tokyo, does that mean we should demolish Japan, perish the thought? ;)

    Hey leave my Dashie out of this, she's my best guard dog I have ever owned.:whistling:
     
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  15. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    It was an anemone bud, read the thread and you will see my intentions Id please anemone - Marine Aquariums of South Africa.
    I agree with you on the science of supply and demand, I doubt my little purchase would curtail them from buying any more anemones, and if you were there you would have heard me actually telling the owner of the store that he has to many bleached anemones, thus trying to do my little bit in maybe making the owner think twice before purchasing bleached anemones, but can we place the blame on him, where does it stop?

    No offence taken.:1:
     
    Last edited: 2 Sep 2012
  16. carlosdeandrade

    carlosdeandrade

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    ......Also @mariusmayer, I have never owned an sps never want to either even though I know I can. At the moment I have three LPS, one hammer and two plating corals (which I rescued from another dude) the rest of my corals are all softies. Scared to buy sps, and I have a pretty good system, might not be as good as others that spend fortunes on, but in a one income houshold we do pretty good.:)
     
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  17. CocaColaza

    CocaColaza

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    Hi @crispin ,
    I have actually wanted to start a thread about your holier than though attitude for awhile now but thought to myself hell why waste the time. Now that you let the cat out of the bag here goes.

    Firstly, Marine organisms belong in the ocean. Not in your pefect tank but in the ocean. Now given this fact be carefull when you say whats best for the animals.. because whats best for the animals is that you leave them alone where they belong. Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Even the members that have been here for years have had bad tank crashes with massive livestock losses. Thats the name of the game in marines unfortunately.

    So given the fact that we are allready doing something that is not best for the animals lets try and make the best of it. This is in my humble opinion what masa is about. So teach eachother and learn. Unfortunately i think you personally have scared away more newbies genuinely looking for help with your attitude than any member on this forum. So what happens when these guys leave the forum? They go and listen to their LFS shop advice which is sometimes really bad. In other words you are personally doing way more damage than good to livestock by being an @sshole and not offering people advice whilst being nice.

    So anyway there goes my rant.. the next time you reply to a post decide what is more important to you.. genuinely helping the livestock and having "higher ethics" (LOL SERIOUSLY?).. or just being a pr1ck.
     
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  18. brentnorm

    brentnorm

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    ***...........really!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  19. ziyaadb

    ziyaadb

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    @crispin I love ya man, ignore the haters:thumbup:
     
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  20. brentnorm

    brentnorm

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    I remember being a newbie and getting lots off good advice from @crispin
     
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  21. CocaColaza

    CocaColaza

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    Guess its just me then
     
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